Putin, arse, elbow

[Charlie George]

I think grad is a NATO name for that model. Next iteration Tornado, Another eg - new missile called Satan II so there may have been a I

Grads are said to be able to cause some level of destruction over 1 square mile from one salvo. The pattern can be shaped. One thing that struck me is that Russia doesn't seem to have used them much /. at all in numbers all at once.

The Tornado max range is 90 and 120km with an unknown long range introduced recently. It shoots 120,220 amd 300mm. Reloads quickly but like all and artilliary needs to be able to get to s support vehicle for munitions.


Selenskyy mentioned not trying too hard there recently. Report of unpleasant gasses. There is an industrial area on Ukraine's route out, chemical works. According to war in ukraine one bridge knocked out and one left for a retreat.

Ukraine is having some success in the south. The more advanced gear could help them break lines. TBH though I've long thought we are seeing a slow escalation in that area. Blinken running a press conference with a N|ATO head feels it will go on for months. Alternative such as Russia just going home possible but unlikely. Serious food shortages mentioned. Was 100,000,000 now higher. He says Russia can sell grain without any problems from sanctions. He's been everywhere making that clear. No mention of Russia and mine sweepers - mines do seem to be an issue for exports from Ukraine via sea and lack of insurance.

The History channel showed what was the incredibly effective German tank attacks in WWII. Troops running behind them. Seems the Germans also used horses for pulling stuff as they don't need fuel and can cope with mud. Eventually they were used for food during the retreat from the east, dual purpose, 1,000s of them

Grads are used daily by russia, the Ukrainians have destroyed/captured at least 50, HIMARS missile warheads are about 4x bigger than Grad rockets, but longer range and also more precise, Grads are more of a hit a general direction weapon, russia has better systems but nowhere near the numbers they have of Grads.

 

[transam]

The Russians are up set about the Americans supplying the Ukraine with state of the art missile systems

Could well be a game changer in this Donbas caper ????

As and when they come on stream

 

[IT Minion]

The Russians are up set about the Americans supplying the Ukraine with state of the art missile systems

Could well be a game changer in this Donbas caper ????

As and when they come on stream

They're a weapon system, they're not Dumbledore flying in on a broomstick.

 

[ajohn]

The Tornado G can use sat guided rockets and some ???? Grads have been upgraded. There is also a Tornado S. The number of G's is ???? really and not knowing what an upgraded Grad is, They have a number of other mobile rocket / missile shooting kits as well. All intended for conflicts

The amrs race is continuous it doesn't just apply to nukes. It can be hard to know what they can do.

I don't support Russia but like some others wonder if Ukraine can win. Biden and NATO mentioned that wars always end in negotiations and land held is part of the bargaining position. We have 2 sides that wont agree. There has been an interesting documentary on the history channel showing production rates against the allies progress in the war. What a side needs to do is outproduce the enemy. That is always going to figure to some extent. The main difference here is Russia always attacking defended positions. The kit supplied rules out ancient tank attacks backed by troops and that means losses and there aren't so many troops available either.

The fact is a side saying we have destroyed X doesn't mean much. It depends on what they have left and how quickly they can get that into service.

The spin all round doesn't help knowing how things are really going. Propaganda is a normal feature of war. We might even be watching a strange form of a proxy war. It's pretty clear what certain western parties want to achieve. What does that mean to Ukraine?

 

[transam]

They're a weapon system, they're not Dumbledore flying in on a broomstick.

A weapons system you say

Oh

You sure

 

[Justin Passing]

I think grad is a NATO name for that model. Next iteration Tornado, Another eg - new missile called Satan II so there may have been a I

No. Grad is NOT a model. It's almost any MLRS system . Tornado is a missile not a "system".
Grad is Russian for "hail" - a very general term which started use in the 60's - 63 iirc.
The systems comprise rockets, launcher and vehicle.
Tornado is a rocket not a launch system. The rockets vary a lot.
Some system/rockets are guided /interconnected, some are much bigger than others, and they use different types of warhead. Anti personnel, anti armour, and so on.

Please stop posting nonsense. If you're going to post something contradictory, get your facts right.
The Russians have all sorts, in quantities people only really guess at.
Ukes want longer range than they have, and more accurate, from USA, UK etc. That's about all we really know.

Looking right now (2 a.m.) at the news channels, they're saying exactly the same as they did last night, with an extra commentator here or there.
Everyone and his dog has an opinion on how effective this or that will be.

Cholera in Mariupol is about the only news to me.

 

[ajohn]

Please stop posting nonsense. If you're going to post something contradictory, get your facts right.

I just use wiki names for the units so it must be full of nonsense. Go argue with them.

 

[Charlie George]

Grad(hail) is the russian nickname for the BM-21, the NATO reporting name is M1964 for original model and later models have names such as M1975, all just read from Wikipedia.

 

[Justin Passing]

You can't just quote Wikipedia. I wrote some of it.

Wikipedia doesn't have an entry for GRAD, only a specific model of GRAD, the BM 21.

 

[Justin Passing]

Grad(hail) is the russian nickname for the BM-21, the NATO reporting name is M1964 for original model and later models have names such as M1975, all just read from Wikipedia.

All Ford Escorts are cars.
All cars are not Ford Escorts

 

[bernardgreen]

All cars are not Ford Escorts

Some cars are Ford Escorts ( using the widest definition of "car " )

 

[Charlie George]

You can't just quote Wikipedia. I wrote some of it.

Wikipedia doesn't have an entry for GRAD, only a specific model of GRAD, the BM 21.

I know Wikipedia has no entry for Grad, as it's the nickname for the BM-21 and only the BM-21, all the other MLRS in russia have their own nicknames, and my post was to ajohn who wrongly claimed Grad was a NATO name

 

[Deleted member 174758]

The History channel showed what was the incredibly effective German tank attacks in WWII. Troops running behind them. Seems the Germans also used horses for pulling stuff as they don't need fuel and can cope with mud. Eventually they were used for food during the retreat from the east, dual purpose, 1,000s of them

Part of the reason they used horses was because they didn't have enough trucks - it was one of the main reasons why the infantry kept getting outrun by the tanks, and is also why you see so many captured trucks in use in Russia (e.g. French and British trucks captured with the fall of France)

 

[Odds]

Part of the reason they used horses was because they didn't have enough trucks - it was one of the main reasons why the infantry kept getting outrun by the tanks, and is also why you see so many captured trucks in use in Russia (e.g. French and British trucks captured with the fall of France)

And still they had to use horses when the roads became churned up with mud after the snow melted in spring and then rain made some of them a river. It probably led to the German Armour having to stop before Dunkirk as the supply chain wasn't fast enough to keep up.

One of my favourite factoids from the First World War is fodder for horses was the largest commodity supplied to the front, then artillery shells.

 

[ajohn]

was to ajohn who wrongly claimed Grad was a NATO name

I should have said assumed but the way they are listed makes sense when the content is looked at. There may be variations and derivatives mentioned.

List of equipment of the Russian Ground Forces - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So some one comes up with them.