The EU Referendum

[Big_Spark]

But where is the reasons for your idealic statement on how you say we can only survive in the EU---6 times i believe now.

I did not say idealic did I. The UK could survive without membership of the EU, HOWEVER, economically and Militarilly it is better off in the EU/NATO.

I would accept that perhaps in the short term, say next 10 years, things are not rosey due to the recent expansion, but as the economies of the Eastern Nations grow, the situation will improve. Internationally Europe should dominate now(economically speaking), our combined net worth is higher than any other nation or trading block, and this WILL improve over time, especially if we work closer together to get rid of the wastage that occurs.

China is a huge force on the rise. Many people do not understand the Chinese situation, but the fact is they need us more than we need them, however this does not detract from the fact that 1.6 Billion people is a HUGE economic power if the Chinese get it right, equally, India is also on the rise and yet another massive potential trading market.

The US always looks after it's own interests, nothing wrong in that, but it does harm Europe in the process, as such the Europeans cannot compete with the US individually, they need to do this with a common purpose, and the way to do that is to integrate better.

HOWEVER, this should not be done blindly or at any cost. It MUST be done with the full understanding of the people of Europe, unfortunately all the Governments in Europe appear to think the public would not understand the bigger picture..they are wrong.

All the evidence for and against should be laid out to all the people of Europe simultaneously, this information should be political, military and economic, and include projections for the next 50 years..then they should ask all the people of Europe to make decisions based on this information..but this decision should be made at the same time, not spread over years as currently happens with virtually no information.

 

[Big_Spark]

All you do is reply with insults and part threats, never any fact or explanation, and still no reasoning or fact behind your idealism and rantings.

As regards being a liar, i can call you that as i know a hell of a lot more than you think, and can prove it and back up some of the things i have posted here-----you cant-----you said dont get personal----right from the beginning you started throwing insults at people, and now you carry on because we wont accept your rantings as you cant supply any truth.

Read what I have read, look at the quotes, they are all from Government official sites and similar sources. As for Ranting..don't make me laugh, that is one thing I will accept YOU are an expert in.

 

[Freddie]

Again in your first post all you have done is state what may or may not happen in the future world.

The one thing i agree with you is military, for 2 reasons, one because it is so expensive today and two, because if you form a military pact the back up is huge and you are unlikly to go to war with each other.

Non of this is a reason to go forward with the EU or even to stay in it, as all any of the succesfull countries are doing is subsidising the wasters.



On the EU and its hand outs and money wasted and fraud i can speak out on as i have personal experience of it together with the euro.

Still no reason for the idealism ( my words ) of Briton in the EU. just waffle and insults/threats

 

[Big_Spark]

Again in your first post all you have done is state what may or may not happen in the future world.

The one thing i agree with you is military, for 2 reasons, one because it is so expensive today and two, because if you form a military pact the back up is huge and you are unlikly to go to war with each other.

Non of this is a reason to go forward with the EU or even to stay in it, as all any of the succesfull countries are doing is subsidising the wasters.



On the EU and its hand outs and money wasted and fraud i can speak out on as i have personal experience of it together with the euro.

Still no reason for the idealism ( my words ) of Briton in the EU. just waffle and insults/threats

The sort of Military connections that are currently being forged in Europe will lead to a closer working relationship, that will, inevitably, lead to closer political ties, and thus economic ties. In the modern world these three things are inter-connected..some of us may not like this, but it is a simple fact of the world we live in today.

The EU has certainly maintained the stability of Europe in thelast 60 years, this is the longest period in the last 1000 years where the major powers have not been slinging something at each other (apart from insults ). It is incumbant upon us to ensure that this remains the case for future generations, a war in Western Europe would be devastating and must be avoided at ALL COSTS.

There is fraud in Europe, of that there is no doubt, but much of this fraud goes undetected due to the interference of local Governments and the differing legal systems..although I accept some is missed by sheer incompetence or indifference!

 

[Freddie]

People say it is NATO that kept the countries from going to war.

There still is no reason why Europe can not carry on as a Common Market? EU pact ? EU Organisation ?

There is no evidence or fact behind the reasons of what you are saying some kind of superstate.

Fact is even in youre superstate, regions like Britain will still be payed for the holes of Europe, those aguments will never go away just as the English are sick to death of the winging Welsh and Scots and want rid.

So whats the point of going down that road again on a bigger scale ???

There simply is NO benefit at all to Britain, and Britain would be better off out of it.

On the fraud and waste in Europe you honestly havent got a clue mate, i see it ever day.

 

[Richardp]

Abdul with his 2 goats and 5 acres of sand and rock.

whats this all about then? your constantly telling us that your not racist, xenophobic or bigoted etc. so rather than jumping to conclusions whats this mean?

 

[Big_Spark]

People say it is NATO that kept the countries from going to war.

There still is no reason why Europe can not carry on as a Common Market? EU pact ? EU Organisation ?

There is no evidence or fact behind the reasons of what you are saying some kind of superstate.

Fact is even in youre superstate, regions like Britain will still be payed for the holes of Europe, those aguments will never go away just as the English are sick to death of the winging Welsh and Scots and want rid.

So whats the point of going down that road again on a bigger scale ???

There simply is NO benefit at all to Britain, and Britain would be better off out of it.

On the fraud and waste in Europe you honestly havent got a clue mate, i see it ever day.

Freedie..if you see fraud every day then you must either in law enforcement, and your too thick for that, so you must be a thief? What other conclusion can anyone infer from your comment.

As for the winging Welsh and Scots...you are a pratt fella.

Yuo do not have the intelligence for informed debate so this will be my last post on this subject in this thread.

 

[david and julie]

WE DID NOT vote for what we have, had we voted for a fully integrated EU there would be no need for a referendum.

What are the other issues that need referenda and what is your opinion of EMU?

The Government in this nation is NOT what we voted for...things change and grow, they evolve. Get over it.

I have answered this question if you bother to read the post above...

Totally naive comment this as we will soon be given the option of choosing which party governs us in a general election here, this has not been and will never be the case in Europe.

EU and EEC are not the same as you suggest, one is a Union the other is a community. That is not the same and not what was voted for and you know it too. It is just that because you agree with the EU that you say this.

You did not answer my question about EMU at all you only spoke about the single currency or Euro. Too anybody else who may not understand the subtle difference I will explain (as I see it)

Some people confuse the initials EMU, I have heard European monetary unit most, followed by Economic monetary unit. They also called it the ECU to further confuse people.

The true meaning of EMU is Economic and Monetary Union.

"Sound fiscal policies and a monetary policy geared to price stability are fundamental for the success of economic and monetary union

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/25/business/wbrecord26.html

Make no mistakes about what this means, it means one economic entity or put another way all the member states economies united into a union and run from one place (Brussels)

Some would suggest this is a similar situation to the old USSR. Espescially given that we have not voted for this, many of the officials are unelected directly by the people and furthermore we can't vote them out.

As regards this comment.

As for the winging Welsh and Scots...you are a pratt fella.

Yuo do not have the intelligence for informed debate so this will be my last post on this subject in this thread.

I have the intelligence to carry on if you wish. To me this looks like you are dropping out because you can't answer our concerns which is unfortunate.

 

[Freddie]

Again more insults because we wont accept your point of view.

If you had an intelligent arguement based on and backed up with common sense then probably all looking in on this thread could accept what you are saying, but your are saying nowt, just spouting figures grabbed off the internet to try and make some farcicle evidence to back up your claim.

It is pure garbage, even Tony Blair had more evidence than this when he went to war in Iraq, and he had no evidence

 

[Freddie]

ok then.

 

[Freddie]

 

[david and julie]

Abdul with his 2 goats and 5 acres of sand and rock.

whats this all about then? your constantly telling us that your not racist, xenophobic or bigoted etc. so rather than jumping to conclusions whats this mean?

Just to help you richard in your petty minded s**t stiring. I do believe freddie is saying he doesn't see the sense in subsidising other farmers from abroad. If he had said Jack or Peter your grubby little ears wouldn't of pricked up. It is not racist to say Abdul that may be the farmers name! Stop looking for racist comments that aren't there it is becomming tiresome.

If you want to say something, tell us about the benefits of EU membership and why we are wrong or explain about the EMU etc. In other words say something useful instead of nitpicking.

 

[Freddie]

Dont worry i know what Richards at, i quite like him i find him quite funny like the naughty child in class just waiting for a chance to throw a funny in

 

[Damocles]

Whatever made you think we are now part of a monolithic single european union. We are far far far far away from that.

You do not like how the EU is run? There are three parts, the commision, the parliament and the council of ministers. The ministers are just members of the individual governments. The commisioners are retired members of the individual governments. The only part of all this which is an actual democratic government is the parliament, which mostly has bugger all powers to do anything. It can not change the budget. It can not make proposals for new laws. It can propose amendments to what the others have decided. It can totally throw out the budget, or as happened recently the whole commision. It can not make sensible small changes.

The EU is stil exactly what it was made. A gentlemens club for the prime ministers of Europe to go along and chat and decide how best to sort the things which affect them all. All the rest is just window dressing. Every single prime minister goes along there, agrees to do something which he knows is unpopular but which he also knows has to be done IN THE INTEREST OF HIS OWN COUNTRY, and then he blames it on all the others. An excellent tool to get things done and avoid the blame.

The money is an utter red herring. I agree there is poor financial control of the budget. But a lot of this is pretty much connived at within the countries concerned. The other countries all realise that on the whole the total amounts concerned are small compared to the whole budget, and that it is MUCH more sensible to let the individual governments carry on at home as they think best. Which is what we do, what the French do, what everyone does.

Sorry? How exactly will I get the chancer to choose who will make up the next parliament? If I had to choose from the three main parties I would choose Lib dem. Mainly because they have never had a go yet. But just what exactly is the chance that this countries third biggest political party will form the next government? Exactly zero. So how is it possible for me to vote them into office?

And what is the chance that this countries second biggest party will form the next government? Also zero barring a political miracle. Democracy, huh? What exactly can i choose?

Did anyone ask me if I wanted to invade Iraq? Anyone ask if I wanted to ban Hunting? Those are pretty straightforward and fundamental questions. It would be relatively easy to have a referendum on them.

Parliaments were created to decide things on our behalf because it was not practical for all the people to be asked. Well nowadays it IS practical to ask the people. Just that the politicans do not. they know damn well that we would frequently not give them the answer they want.

 

[david and julie]

Damocles what are you actually saying? Are you saying the EU is good for the UK or not?