The EU Referendum

[Damocles]

Nothing is every purely good or purely bad. Politics is always about compromise. The real problem for the EU is that it is so convenient to blame it for anything and everything that goes wrong. The EU we have got is what the politicians all wanted.

Honestly? I think it is the greatest invention since the United kingdom of Great Britain. Everything which has been said here could have been said one way or another when the south saxon kingdom was combined with the west saxons, or the scots with the english, and so on and so on. Making a big country which truly works and where everyone is happy with the deal is very difficult. But if you can make it work even poorly, then the result is immensely better than the sum of its parts.

 

[Freddie]

Damocles on a saturday night after a few cans please try and make the posts shorter or put them on earlier

 

[david and julie]

Damocles on a saturday night after a few cans please try and make the posts shorter or put them on earlier

Better still make them make some sense.

Honestly? I think it is the greatest invention since the United kingdom of Great Britain. Everything which has been said here could have been said one way or another when the south saxon kingdom was combined with the west saxons, or the scots with the english, and so on and so on. Making a big country which truly works and where everyone is happy with the deal is very difficult. But if you can make it work even poorly, then the result is immensely better than the sum of its parts.

I presume devolution went straight over your head then Damocles?

 

[Damocles]

Devolution of what? I am a great believer in subsidiarity. In fact I wish the british government would apply it to uk law rather than moaning that the EU does not apply it to theirs.

Subsidiarity means that all decisions should be made as close as possible to the people they concern. So your council should be able to decide on street mending and local tax. your county on I don't know what, perhaps county-wide planning, your country on whether to go to war.

Exactly which central government has given extra powers to local councils instead of taking them away?

Sorry can't put them up earlier, takes to long to write them.

 

[Freddie]

I agree there with you Damocles, laws and planning should be made for what the people want, noy for politicians and a few business men

 

[david and julie]

Subsidiarity means that all decisions should be made as close as possible to the people they concern. So your council should be able to decide on street mending and local tax. your county on I don't know what, perhaps county-wide planning, your country on whether to go to war.

Are you sure about this damocles, where did you get this definition from?

I do agree that your definition would be preferable though.

 

[Big_Spark]

To help this point...

Subsidiarity....

This tenet holds that nothing should be done by a larger and more complex organization which can be done as well by a smaller and simpler organization. In other words, any activity which can be performed by a more decentralized entity should be. This principle is a bulwark of limited government and personal freedom. It conflicts with the passion for centralization and bureaucracy characteristic of the Welfare State.

It was the original tenet of the United States, but over the years even this has become more centralized with local controls being eroded.

In the UK this was also a central theme for well over 500 years, however since the end of WWII, centralisation of Government processes has increased to the point where central Government is unwieldly and often does not react to the needs and requirements of those at local levels

 

[david and julie]

Tell me how can anybody believe in "subsidiarity" and the EU at the same time?

 

[Freddie]

I think that this maybe the point that Engineer and others fail to understand.

Fraud and waste are one thing which could if the will was there be corrected, this he has kind of said.

Having to pay billions into something which you do not get your return on is something that gets people but they have had to put up with it because the tax % has always been fairly low to pay for it, so they have got away with it untill now where the tax because of maybe this goverment is spirraling out of control.

When you have politicians on all sides strutting around with big grins just spouting garbage and insulting you as they think you dont have the intelligence to see through the crap they spout.

When another process will come in which will make the normal Joe even more powerless and helpless with all the powers going to a few in Brussels and over ruling anything left at local level.

Put them all together and what you get is----give us the referrendum and you will find out-----a big fat NO

 

[Damocles]

Tell me, how can anyone believe in 'subsidiarity' and the Westminster parliament at the same time?

Show me a british politician complaining about a European policy which he believes takes power from westminster, and I will show you a british politician (the same one of course) who has done exactly what he complains about by taking powers from local british government.

I do not believe in overcentralised government. That is exactly why I welcome Europe as about the only check we have on the untramelled power of 300 men at westminster.

 

[Freddie]

Tell me, how can anyone believe in 'subsidiarity' and the Westminster parliament at the same time?

Show me a british politician complaining about a European policy which he believes takes power from westminster, and I will show you a british politician (the same one of course) who has done exactly what he complains about by taking powers from local british government.

I do not believe in overcentralised government. That is exactly why I welcome Europe as about the only check we have on the untramelled power of 300 men at westminster.

I agree with you Damocles except for your last point.

Just because something is wrong you dont replace it with something else that is wrong and even worse

Someone stated earlier that the EU has become a big boy politicians club, i agree with that aswell i think we let them get too powerfull and they need to be checked, they have appointed themselves the Royal Family of Europe

 

[Damocles]

Well then, there we disagree. The Eu has helped the spread of exactly the kinds of friendly neighbour governments which we want and need. It has given us rights to prevent them adopting policies bad for us. It has made Europe more open. It has given us back the freedon to travel and live abroad which was once enjoyed by people all over Europe. Before the nation states all cracked down on their citizens rights, that is. It has broken some of the monopoly powers of individual governments to boss their people around. It stops ridiculous tax excesses. It helped the Scots and Welsh get their own parliaments.

The state of the British constitution is abysmall. We had a functional democracy approximately after the civil war and the return of the king. Right now it is totally in pieces.

 

[Big_Spark]

Tell me how can anybody believe in "subsidiarity" and the EU at the same time?

I'll quote this as I cannot be assssed to quote Freddie too.

I do understand this Freddie..despite your comment to the contrary.

My post was simply clearing up what Subsidiarity was ..I did not express any opinion on it as regards this thread..

However I will express my opinion here.

The EU does not operate in this way because it wants too, quite the opposite in fact. It operates in this pseudo subsidiarity way purely by default due to the way it was setup, no other reason.

This is not correct, a proper formulated Government structure should be logically hierachical with control based on the big picture.

By this I mean the following..simplified for space.

Town/City Council..this makes the decisions for all service etc in it's jursidiction, no outside interference UNLESS these decisions will impact on the surrounding areas.

Regional Legislature: This will deal with the infrastructure to operate the region as whole, and deal with issues that will effect more than one council under it's jurisdiction.

National/State Legislature: This will deal with all matters relating to the region singled out as a Nation/ State. Should matters fall outside this, such as defence, foriegn Policy, International trade etc, then this would be passed to the next level for processing.

Federal Legislature: This would deal with all matters that would effect the whole, such as foreign Policy, International Trade, Defence etc.

Between this would be the Judicery that would ensure that successive levels could not, and did not, impose their powers and decisions on the lower levels if those decisions were not beyond the jurisdiction of the lower tier of Government.

If such a system were set up correctly and it was contolled by clear legislation, then this would work, especially if a true form of democracy was added for the citizens.

Unfortunately no system of Government that I am aware of operates in this way, the UK should, but does not, the EU should, but does not, the French should, but does not, the Germans should, but does not..

In fact the nearest system I am aware of is in Australia.

This is where I see Europes future, with properly and democratically elected local Government, then democratically elected Government above that to the highest level.

We do not have democracy in the UK, but we desperatly need it.

 

[Freddie]

It has made Europe more open. It has given us back the freedon to travel and live abroad which was once enjoyed by people all over Europe. Before the nation states all cracked down on their citizens rights, that is. It has broken some of the monopoly powers of individual governments to boss their people around. It stops ridiculous tax excesses.

The state of the British constitution is abysmall. [/quote]
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We always could travel through Europe, well at least in my life and i am 46.

Our citizens rights are less and less everyday and would be worse in Europe, as we cant correct anything, it all has to be done in Brussels.

Ridiculas tax excess's----Labour goverments have always increased the tax burden, and Europe wants us to pay more tax thats what this thread is about--Britain having to pay more tax.

Since when did we have a constitution in Britain???

 

[Freddie]

Engineer--- You have stated what should happen in Britain, but not explained how being in Europe would bring any of it.

I agree about democracy needed desperatly,but if you cant change something that is cronically wrong in one country because if it came to the vote people in other member countries may vote against it because it harms them----------perfect example is the common agricultrial policy, some countries have tried to change it, other countries with more farmers have voted it down just because they would lose out on handouts even though the system is wrong.

A perfect example on how Europe cant work and the other when the French go around to the smaller countries saying " you had better know your place "---------- Democracy eh !.