TN-C-S Distrubution Fault Symptoms?

I'm not sure, but there could have been any number of people who believed that handwashing scared away the evil spirits that caused the high mortalities. They wouldn't have been proved correct by Lister's work based on Pasteur's research.
Yes, but that's not really the point. No matter what people thought (incorrectly) of the mechanism, the strong empirical evidence was that handwashing did reduce mortality, a long time before anyone had a clue as to the true reason.

The big difference between the above and what ElectricsRanger is saying about electricity is that, in contrast with handwashing, there is NO "strong empirical evidence" (probably no sound empirical evidence at all) for what he is talking about. IF there were scientifically solid empirical evidence, then we would probably have to act accordingly, even though we didn't yet understand mechanisms.

Even in the 21st century, any regulatory agency in the world would licence a new medicine if there were adequate empirical evidence of its efficacy and safety, even if its mechanism of action were totally unknown. Demonstrating, or even understanding, the mechanism is not a requirement.

Kind Regards, John
 
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ElectricsRanger said:
In fact does the government not advice people have a carbon dioxide meter in the home

You mean carbon MONoxide. This gas fixes permanently to the haemoglobin molocules in the red blood cells and cannot be removed thus rendering the cells unable to transport oxygen.
While building codes are not normally retroactive, the State of California does require not only relevant CO detectors in a new homes but also that they be fitted upon the sale of a home. Ditto for smoke detectors. (CO detectors only if there are combustion appliances.)

Yes, but that's not really the point. No matter what people thought (incorrectly) of the mechanism, the strong empirical evidence was that handwashing did reduce mortality, a long time before anyone had a clue as to the true reason.
Look at what the Victorians did for health by constructing effective sewerage systems because of their firm belief in the bad effects of "drain air." It turned out they were doing the right thing, just not for the reasons they generally believed.
 
In the case of AC electricity, its not as simple as being on or off, its has characteristics that makes it what is. Its an alternating current, which numerous processes before it enters a UK home. Most people see electricity as power, that comes from a power station, and then out of the socket on the wall. Its voltage is stepped up to thousands of volts, then its stepped down, its a complicated energy source.

Lister proved there was things called bacteria.

In electricity we have transients, and they can cover wide frequency spectrum. In electronics, electronic devices communicate digital information is 1's or 0's, which is coding for information like audio, pictures and signals that make it possible to use the phones camera to take picture. The human body has it own electronic signals which run in milli volt level. Are brains has different parts that intercommunicate particular frequencies. Its known the transients can be on the electrical wiring, its called EMI Electromagnetic Interference.

Another issue that is more modern is the switching power supplies or digital power supplies that have become more common in the last 4o years. Before we all had big linear transformers in our devices, tv's, radio's, video machines, which dropped down the voltages. They were more expensive to make, were heavier and larger. There is no way you would have a linear transformer in a flat screen tv, it would have to be in a box connected to the tv and the mains. These new switching power supplies generate power by switching coil known as an inductor on and off 10,000 times per second, and because the coil resists, it allows more current to be generated than it takes from the mains. Switching power supplies make it possible for 1000w psu to sit inside a computer, or small light power supplies inside small devices like flat screen tvs.

The problem is that these devices have to have well made EMI filter circuits to stop the switching transients generated in the power supply proccess, from interfering with the device its powering, such as a tv showing interfence on the screen, or sound interference on an audio device. These electronics we use in our houses which we buy cheaply from china though a middle man, are not always working correctly, and while the device can be functioning, for instance the device turns on and shows life, or a mains light running as if it was fine, it can be generated large amounts of transients on to the mains. In some cases the switching power supply can be generating more power than its using, and returns that back to the grid creating an imbalance.

===================

We are only discussing something, i would hope no one thinks this is alarmist attempt to have people change their lives instantly, because its not. I am trying to see if something is wrong with my mains wiring, nothing more, nothing less. No statements about why its not working only, an open minded attempt to establish normal working characterises. There is some areas that are not quite correct from an electrical installation point of view, I would like to document what they are, and see if they make any noticeable difference when changed, and record the results. If the change makes a difference, then maybe it can be tried again in another situation, but i think we are jumping the gun for the moment.

As far the point of lister.

If someone deactivates a device, equipment, process or just changes the way we carry out a procedure, for instance washing hands before eating or Doctor carrying out a medical procedure, and that stops or changes the out come, and it replicated again in similar situations, then you have an outcome.

The machine being stopped or started is one outcome, the phone being turned on or off. Throwing a phone on the floor and breaking its screen. Washing hands to reduce the potential for bacteria to enter the body through the mouth or nose. The doctor washing their hands to reduce the chance of bacteria entering a wound or coming in to contact with a patients blood, of course with medical gloves the risk is greater reduced.

When i turn the ring main on a change is made, when its turn off the change is gone. No one is saying what it is, because that is the casual interest. Why is there a change, is it an unusual change, is it the same in other houses, in other areas. How many people do you know who switch off their ring mains, other than when they need to have electrical work carried out?

We know now that bacteria lives on the hands, and that washing the hands with a cleaning agent for the hands reduces the amounts of bacteria, which reduces the amount that would potential invade the body, giving the person an upset stomach or a cold sickness. We take that for granted now, because its so simple to prove, and so well documented. Sadly many people have started to forget about washing their hands, and wonder they they get sick more, and how to fix or reduce the risk.

I have made a simple test, i turned the ring main off, the problem faded away. I turn it back on the problem returns quickly. Why? Thats the question. Lister concluded with research in to bacteria, and showed why. If someone understands why, everything makes sense.

Electricity is more complicated that people care to think about. I would not be surprised if people thought exactly the same about the fuel they pump in to their cars or vans. Fuel is not just fuel, it is developed by a particular refining process that creates the end result. If its not right it can cause serious damage to the car, or just fail to work all together.

======================
Points about EMF

The point about the EMF debate that. Dr George Carlo, was employed and funded to research the effects of mobile phones on the human body, he was employed by the mobile phone industry to perform first large scale research, and his team has found that the way the cells communicate is impacted by alien signals entering the body.

Dangers of cell phone radiation George Carlo Part 2.wmv


Check out this video you can see their growing information about emf, its not ELF which what we are talking about as much, but the doctor shows a patient reacting to the presence of an electrical device.

Radio Frequency Radiation, Electromagnetic Spectrum, Cell Phone Emf Shield


ElectricsRanger
 
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In some cases the switching power supply can be generating more power than its using, and returns that back to the grid creating an imbalance.
Impossible that a switch mode power supply unit ( SMPU ) can generate power, what they can do is create voltages higher than the nominal mains voltage ( 230 RMS 322 Peak) and in a poorly designed SMPU these excessive voltage can get onto the incoming mains supply.

Lister proved there was things called bacteria.
He did not say there were bacteria and then set out to prove they existed...... he looked at what was happening and then thought through several mechanisms then could be responsible for the effects. One of theose mechanisms was small, invisible to the human eye, "creatures" that carried malicious material from one infected person to another.

He had an open mind as to what was causing the illnesses in people, he did not begin the search with a single minded idea that there were bacteria, he discovered there were bacteria.
 
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Lister proved there was things called bacteria.
No, that was Pasteur. Lister applied that knowledge to the development of aseptic surgery.
Bacteria were first discovered/described/seen by some Dutchman (whose name I can never remember!) in the mid 1600s, a couple of hundred years before Pasteur and Lister.

IIRC, Pasteur's work was essentially limited to showing that fermentation and the spoiling of food etc. was due to micro-organisms and that what we now know as "pasteurisation" could prevent that (his work on vaccines was a totally different issue, and I don't think they understood how they worked at the time). I think it was a decade or two later that Koch was the first person to establish a link between bacteria and disease, thereby setting the scene for Lister's work.

Kind Regards, John
 
Bacteria were first discovered/described/seen by some Dutchman (whose name I can never remember!) in the mid 1600s, a couple of hundred years before Pasteur and Lister.
Anton Van Leeuwenhoek John? I know he discovered some micro-organisms, and I believe coined the term 'animalcule', but did his apparatus have enough resolution to see bacteria?
 
Bacteria were first discovered/described/seen by some Dutchman (whose name I can never remember!) in the mid 1600s, a couple of hundred years before Pasteur and Lister.
Anton Van Leeuwenhoek John? I know he discovered some micro-organisms, and I believe coined the term 'animalcule', but did his apparatus have enough resolution to see bacteria?
That's the guy! I may be wrong but I think you'll find that it is generally believed that at least some of his "animacules" were what we would now classify as bacteria. Don't forget that some bacteria are relatively 'large' (in terms of microscopiocal things!), so quite possibly visible with the equipment available to him.

Edit: a very hasty bit of Googling found (as first hit):
Anton van Leeuwenhoek, a Dutch cloth merchant, was the first person to see bacteria. During the 1660s he started to grind glass lenses to make better magnifying lenses so he could examine the weave of cloth more easily. He excelled at lens grinding and achieved magnifications up to 500 times lifesize. It is not recorded why he decided to use his best lens to look at a sample of pond water, but he did, and saw that it was teeming with tiny living things.
Leeuwenhoek sent a report of his sightings of bacteria and algae to the Royal Society in London in the late 1670s with many detailed drawings. These still exist today and it is obvious that, as well as algae and other single-celled plants and animals, he also saw some of the larger bacteria.

Kind Regards, John
 
Ah yes. We used to have a Penguin book in my local library when I was a youngster, called IIRC "The Microbe Men". It described some of this early work.
 
Some good points made in the discussion guys...
I think being open minded is the right way to move forward, otherwise the real truth may never be discovered.

So about the TN-C-S discussion. If the main earth bond, has current flowing on 0.65A, thats 650mA.
Would any of you know if thats normal?

When I isolate the mains that current is still flowing.

When anyone has discussed the earth bond in study environment, it was was classed as a cable that should not have current flowing through it, unless there was or is an electrical fault. I suppose the other common idea or could be that, the earth from the mains would receive current not send current.

The PEN on the TN-C-S PME system, how does that link with the neutral, is just a straight connection on to the neutral?
Is there a kind safe isolation, where by current passes through, but overall the current would not flow back from the neutral of the house supply?

If the issue is with the main neutral to the substation, and the earth potential in the house is lower, does that mean that when the house is using a large amount of power, that a larger percentage will return through the earth?

ElectricsRanger
 
Some good points made in the discussion guys... I think being open minded is the right way to move forward, otherwise the real truth may never be discovered.
Indeed, but the open mind should only consider things as 'possible' unless there is solid scientific evidence that they are true (even if we don't understand the 'why'). To assert, or even suggest, that something is true in the absence of solid evidence is not open-mindedness - it's foolishness.
So about the TN-C-S discussion. If the main earth bond, has current flowing on 0.65A, thats 650mA. Would any of you know if thats normal? When I isolate the mains that current is still flowing.
I don't know how one would define 'normal' - but, as has been said, if whatever is bonded (e.g. a water pipe) has a very low resistance path to earth, then it's quite possible. Both your and your neighbours' neutral current would then go partially through that path back to the transformer. Even if your own installation is 'switched off', your neighbours' neutral current would still go partially through that route.
The PEN on the TN-C-S PME system, how does that link with the neutral, is just a straight connection on to the neutral?
The incoming PEN splits into neutral and 'earth' at the origin of your installation (where they are therefore 'straight connected').
Is there a kind safe isolation, where by current passes through, but overall the current would not flow back from the neutral of the house supply?
With AC, it is essentially impossible to control which direction current can flow in.
If the issue is with the main neutral to the substation, and the earth potential in the house is lower, does that mean that when the house is using a large amount of power, that a larger percentage will return through the earth?
This is basic school physics. The proportions of current flowing through neutral and 'earth' paths respectively will always be the same (determined by the relative impedances of the two paths) regardless of the magnitude of the current.

Kind Regards, John
 
Certainly 0.65A would not be an abnormal current to see under normal operating conditions with TN-C-S and many metallic paths via interconnected water supplies etc. Given the relative resistances involved, I wouldn't be surprised to see up to a few amps when the neighborhood load is high.
 
Certainly 0.65A would not be an abnormal current to see under normal operating conditions with TN-C-S and many metallic paths via interconnected water supplies etc. Given the relative resistances involved, I wouldn't be surprised to see up to a few amps when the neighborhood load is high.
Indeed, and the path to earth via pipes etc. would not need to have all that low a resistance for an amp or three to flow through bonding cables, if the total neutral current (including neighbours) were 'tens of amps'. Admittedly, in practice, the neighbouring proprieties would usually (in UK) be spread across phases, such as the net 'total' neutral current might be low, but that is not inevitably the case.

Kind Regards, John
 
Indeed, but the open mind should only consider things as 'possible' unless there is solid scientific evidence that they are true (even if we don't understand the 'why'). To assert, or even suggest, that something is true in the absence of solid evidence is not open-mindedness - it's foolishness.
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Good morning everyone, I just read your replies for the first time since i last posted a comment.

What you have mentioned about the lower resistance path of the water main, vs the intended earth and neutral return to the substation is what i have uncovered more in the last 24 hours, and confirmed some theories i also had.

I called the power distribution, they said a nice guy around within a couple of hours. He checked the readings with the clamp meter, and he agreeded it was unusual for current to be flowing through the earth bond with the mains off at 2.9A He also said he wan't sure why there should be an earth bond connecting from the previous TN-S earth sheath and the TN-C-S earth & neutral PEN. He disconnected all the earths, and the current stopped, if he connected my main earth bond to the TN-C-S it started again, i would get high 2 or 3 micro tesla readings on the water main, and 0 micro tesla readings when it wasnt disconnected.

He said my installation was within normal readings, but said if we wanted the equipment could upgraded for the PME. He wasnt able to disconnect the earth bond between the TN-S and the TN-C-S because he wasn't sure if they were there for a unknown reason, and he naturally could not disconnect my main earth bond. He said the issue was interesting and unusual for him, and wasnt sure what it could be, but thought to be an issue with the earth wiring on our side than the distribution.

Later after gone i decided to investigate the main water earth bond. We have a plastic join on our water main for our SureStop water switch, so we have our main exponential water bond below that, and a wire linking between the part of copper water main and the rest of the water piping in the house.

I measured the water mains bond cable and the amounts of currents on the TN-S earth bond at the TN-C-S were the same. I disconnected the main earth bond and the wire linking, and the current flows stopped. 0.00A from the PME. 0.00uT with the mains off. With the mains power on the and the value of 0.00uT increasing only with out power usage, the values on the main earth bond was 0.00A. The current flowing by the earth bond connecting between the TN-S earth and the TN-C-S earth have stayed at 0.5A typically.

Readings through oneday

Time: Main Earth Bond: TN-S to TN-C-S Earth Bond Line: Neutral:
10:00am 0.42A ... 2.36A 2.33A
14:17 0.35A ... 2.30A 2.28A
17:25 1.33A 0.31A 2.66A 2.64A
21:24 2.66A 1.31A 2.77A 2.77A
23:47 0.56A 0.51A 3.07A 3.08A
01:18 0.50A 0.47A 2.67A 2.69A

Readings with power isolated earth bond connected as normal:
Main Earth Bond: TN-S- to TN-C-S Earth bond: Line: Neutral: Tesla readings uT (Main cables conduit leaving electric cupboard)
0.46A 0.27A 0.02A 0.02A 2.12uT

Readings with all breakers off but the cooker socket, with a 1200w vacuum cleaner connected, and earth bond connected as normal:
Main Earth Bond: TN-S- to TN-C-S Earth bond: Line: Neutral: Tesla readings uT (Main cables conduit leaving electric cupboard)
2.00A 1.34A 5.51A 5.51A 8.00uT

Wall power meter readings: 234V AC 50Hz 5.10A

Readings with power isolated, water mains pipe to ground isolated by plastic coupler. Exponential bonding intact.
Main Earth Bond: TN-S- to TN-C-S Earth bond: Line: Neutral: Tesla readings uT (Main cables conduit leaving electric cupboard)
0.00A 0.56A 0.02A 0.02A 0.02uT

Readings with power on, and 1200w cleaner, water mains pipe to ground isolated by plastic coupler. Exponential bonding intact.
Main Earth Bond: TN-S- to TN-C-S Earth bond: Line: Neutral: Tesla readings uT (Main cables conduit leaving electric cupboard)
0.00A 1.24A 5.55A 5.55A 3.10uT


After i disconnected it, the Tesla fields dropped off very quickly within a foot of space, where as before they were very high for a meter and a half from the main cable conduit. The house felt noticeably different, calmer, relaxed. We felt more ready to sleep. My mother slept the whole night, which is unusual for her. I slept alot better than i had all week, and had multiple vivd dreams on the night after we made the change, also felt noticeable improvement in my health and i also slept longer, about 12 hours.

Ive not finished investigating this issue, its still a little early, but the early changes have been good for us. The tesla readings now only increase with our usage, and drop to near 0 when we lower our usage in the night time. The pipes and the earth system is the house is now 0V where as before they were 1V AC.

There is still current flowing between the TN-S earth and the TN-C-S earth neutral, but its not entering the earth of our house because the resistance is now higher like it should be. I expect the resistance of the water main earth return to the substation was lower than the neutral return to the substation, though i would like to confirm the direction of the current if its possible, just in case a leakage is coming from another house through the water main.

ElectricsRanger
 

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