TN-C-S Distrubution Fault Symptoms?

The three phase being unbalanced, and a difficult issue to keep balanced, is a point, but its not a point that can be fixed, to many unknown variables.
Even with known variables in a very small network it couldn't be "fixed," since the whole network works on the principle that the neutral carries the imbalance current, so there's nothing to "fix." Loads in the different homes are changing all the time and the neutral current at the transformer will fluctuate accordingly, only ever dropping to nil if the loads on all three phases (or both poles of a 3-wire single-phase system) are identical, which in practice is going to be just about never.

And as I said before, the current in any particular stretch of neutral between where two homes have their supplies tapped off will vary with the distribution of loads even if the transformer neutral current were nil. The neutral in your service cable will always carry the current from your house since you have a single-phase supply, just as the neutral in the service cable of your neighbor's house will do, and if you have other parallel paths between your homes (e.g. via your bonded and interconnected water lines) then some of the current will take that path.

I only mentioned the issue of balancing between phases to point out that maximum current at a particular point on a neutral cable does not necessarily correspond with maximum load in a given area.

The TN-C-S works on the principle that the neutral will be earthed at the substation, so that the neutral has the lowest resistance attracting the return current. If the water pipes in a house have a lower return resistance, then the current up to a certain amount will flow through the house earth to the water main.
Even if the resistance through the pipework is higher than that through the neutral cabling, some of the current will still take that path. The old saying about "Electricity will take the path of least resistance" is really rather misleading. Electricity will take any and all paths available to it in inverse proportion to the resistances of those paths. Even if one path has a resistance a thousand times higher than the other, a tiny proportion of the total current will still take that high-resistance path.

We are not talking about guess work, i have an £150 fluke true rms clamp meter that im measuring the current flow with.
I don't think anyone is disputing the value of currents you're reading - At least I'm certainly not, since with TN-C-S and all the bonding in place it's to be expected. And yes, obviously currents create fields which you can measure.

I'm not going to get into the debate about whether those fields may or may not have detrimental health effects, but if you really are determined to reduce the fields created by the current flowing between your neutral and pipework, then you would have to do something to increase the resistance of the path you don't want the current to take. You could start by adding an insulating coupling in the water supply line to break the solid metallic connection which I feel certain exists between your house and the water main and your neighbors. That should see a substantial decrease in the current (although personally I would prefer to keep as much bonded together as possible with TN-C-S). It won't completely eliminate the current, as there will still be paths via existing pipework and masonry to earth etc., but the resistance of that path will be significantly higher.

If you are determined to go further, then you will need to abandon TN-C-S so as to break the link between your incoming neutral and anything in your house which has a path to earth. There would still almost certainly be some current flowing on the bond between the supply neutral and sheath.
 
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Oh, sorry good point, i too was not thinking all the current was flowing through the house. Naturally there is the potential for alot of current to flow through the neutral return, so it would have possibly overloaded the earth at some point, and this has been a long term issue. I expected that only percentage of current was flowing, like potential divider, some current taking the earth and the rest taking the expected neutral route.

The only people have spoken of this investigation as being scientific fact, and conclusive evidence is who, because its not me?

The results recorded show an interesting relation between two issues. One there was large amount of fluctuating current flowing through the house, and change in atmosphere while it was happening. The issue has been present for 30 years, and it noticeable to us. Same as if a house always had smokers smoking inside for 30 years, and then one day it didnt. Its a noticeable change. The removal of the issue has had positive affect for us, i am sleeping and feeling alot better in my general health. I don't lie awake worrying about it, never have, just accepted that the house didnt feel right, and did my best to live the best i could.

The evidence so far shows that there was an issue, that issue has stopped. If anything it shows that this could be a more common issue, specially in houses with a water main that is grounded well to the earth. The earth being wired to a TN-S from a TN-C-S is incorrect wiring, based on the on-site guide and most study material, that is something.

So what I would say if anything, is that it deserves more research.

Oh "tens of thousands of scientists" have failed to find anything right shed. So ill take that as your view, and as a mistaken view as well. You know the WHO are in the habit of making things potential carcinogen risk years after people shouted about the risks, if they were an early warning system, they warn you after you hit the risk.

"
Potential long-term effects
Much of the scientific research examining long-term risks from ELF magnetic field exposure has focused on childhood leukaemia. In 2002, IARC published a monograph classifying ELF magnetic fields as "possibly carcinogenic to humans". This classification is used to denote an agent for which there is limited evidence of carcinogenicity in humans and less than sufficient evidence for carcinogenicity in experimental animals (other examples include coffee and welding fumes). This classification was based on pooled analyses of epidemiological studies demonstrating a consistent pattern of a two-fold increase in childhood leukaemia associated with average exposure to residential power-frequency magnetic field above 0.3 to 0.4 µT. The Task Group concluded that additional studies since then do not alter the status of this classification."

How scientists reproduce something that is produced by accident, by a process that involves many different ingredients. The issue with earth leakage is one thing, but what makes up the current, and the potential electrical frequencies is another issue.

-----

Whats your background shed, do you have any technical education? You have not posted anything on your profile that anyone can read, seems you want to stay like a ghost on here, but like typing your mouth of like your an expert. An expert perhaps, but its hard to say, expert of disinformation.

Come one shed, whats your background. Other than your a joker, or a shed hater / shed paranoid. With much time on their hands, so they can spam message the forum for 12 years. Thats an achievement shed, 12 years, most would get bored, or get a life. Also has a faith that only sticks and stones can damage them, and magic, words, real science, air, oh and magnetic fields wont ever hurt them... Hahahaha....

Maybe your an older person, someone who hates the health and safety act maybe, has loads of tails of standing on old poorly balanced furnature, while painting the celling, or drilling a hole in the wall, with no eye protection. Hahaha

Hahaha, oh and you think all people who think outside the box are conspiracy nuts, who have a foil hat in their wardrobe, hahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha. You don't like chinese made goods so much, that i do like about you.

---

Oh John, you seem to choose what scientific fact has been proven or not. If not believed by you bunch, you guys protests so no one else will want look it up for them selves.

You guys are a funny bunch... Oooo thats not true, thats not proven, thats not good enough evidence, thats in your head that is.... You wanna get that looked at.... Hahahahah

Whats your background JohnO... i doubt its medial research or scientific research, your not interested enough.

Oh don't worry StillP ive not forgot you either... Its not proof, its not scientific... What taking factual readings using measuring equipment, recording results and cross referencing against real life results.... Oh Mr Newton, that apple is not under the effect or gravity... What you mean newtons, im not held to the ground by force... thats in your head that is... no no, force, you prove force... some of the most basic principles were discovered on basic scientific research, alot were by accident because it caused unexpected results. Atom Bomb, Gamma Radiation being deadly to cells.

You three are a triple act, you spout your mouths off like your employed to analyse facts, but you all to closed off. You bunch don't think inside a box, no your inside a double insulated box, with a little box for each one of you inside the main double insulated box... Haha... I bet they are boxes with an atmosphere of basic reasoning... Water is wet, tea is not cold, electricity can kill " that might be pushing it", smoking is dangerous "that might be pushing it", air is air, headaches are just headaches. I bet you guys are real laugh to be with, but i wouldnt be surprised if at least one of you were a gal.

ElectricsRanger
 
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Oh John, you seem to choose what scientific fact has been proven or not.
Nope. I use all I have learned from my extensive scientific education, and decades of experience, to assess the available evidence as best I can.
Whats your background JohnO... i doubt its medial research or scientific research, your not interested enough.
I am somewhat of an enigma in these parts, in terms of my education, my background and even my current professional activities ... but you are very wrong in your doubts.

Kind Regards, John
 
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The earth being wired to a TN-S from a TN-C-S is incorrect wiring,
Originally a TN-S
Something went wrong with it, probably a corroded connection on a cast iron joint box buried underground.
Converted to TN-C-S
The cable sheath is also connected because it's an extraneous conductive part, the same as any other metallic item buried in the ground.
 
Well i guess JohnW2, you seem like a polite guy, but you do seem to get a pants rash when your fact meter goes off... If its not a common fact your all over it likes its not a fact.
I am somewhat of an enigma in these parts, yeah another ghost... so its hard to know 'what' to make of you.


The on-site guys shown the typical wiring diagrams for the three most electrical distribution installs, TN-S, TN-C-S and TT. Well they don't show a TN-C-S with a second earth ground connected to a earth & neutral PME system. Or a TN-C-S with a TT installed as well... In fact does it not show all the internal piping and earthing to be inside the building to not be an extra grounding point, with only the distribution being the main earth.

Oh wait... i can see it now... its not like that... its optional, or it don't matter, its not fact that it matters... the on-site guide is wrong... of course its only a guide.

Hahahahaha

Well the extraneous conductive part is valid, i can see the point, but its connected deep in to the ground, its going to cause current leakage.... current leakage from the PEN?

The current leakage is not causing me harm, not like before, but their is higher teslas around it, and i suspect its got mixed transients running on it. Only a scopemeter would show for sure.
 
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Let me check...

Main earth bond to breaker box =0.00A
0.35A TN-S earth to PME,
L=1.95A N=1.95A
Tesla on main conduit cables 0.80uT, but 2 foot away 0.00uT.

Massive improvement over before.... it very noticeable.

I would say we are down against the average for the house.
 
Well i guess JohnW2, you seem like a polite guy, but you do seem to get a pants rash when your fact meter goes off... If its not a common fact your all over it likes its not a fact. I am somewhat of an enigma in these parts, yeah another ghost... so its hard to know to make of you.
Have these fields had some effect on the English language?

Kind Regards, John
 
Well i guess JohnW2, you seem like a polite guy, but you do seem to get a pants rash when your fact meter goes off... If its not a common fact your all over it likes its not a fact. I am somewhat of an enigma in these parts, yeah another ghost... so its hard to know to make of you.
Have these fields had some effect on the English language?

Kind Regards, John
Maybe his computer's on the fritz too from all the EMF. Long live the SSD!
 
http://www.dirtyelectricity.ca/dirty_electricity_four_components.htm


Four Components that Comprise Dirty Electricity and other EMFs in a Home


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Dirty Electricity - Ground Currents - Radio Frequency Radiation - Electromagnetic Fields


Several Factors Contribute to High levels of Dirty Electricity and other electromagnetic fields in today's Homes and Buildings:



Dirty Electricity and Electrical Pollution

"Dirty Electricity" and other electrical pollutants come from a number of sources. Harmful high frequency energy can be picked up and carried along into a home or building as it makes its way to you from the utility. It can come from your neighbours, whose polluted electrical current may find its way into your home's electrical system though a shared transformer, or through your water pipes (plumbing current) caused by grounding and wiring problems ,or through ground current as the electricity makes it's way back to the substation via the ground.

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Most of the dirty electricity is created by electrical devices in our own homes. Computers, TVs, florescent tube, CFL and low-voltage halogen lighting and virtually all of today's energy-efficient electronic devices induce high levels of high frequency harmonics and electrical "noise" back onto circuits and then into a building's electrical system creating an invisible, powerful, high frequency EMF called "dirty Electricity". This happens when transformers and power supplies convert our AC current to the low voltage power used to run all of our electronics. In the process of saving energy these energy-efficient devices chop up the conventional AC 60Hz sine wave and create what are known as electrical "transients".



Transients are pulses of high frequency electromagnetic energy that are much more dangerous then your home wiring's extremely low 60Hz frequency because can actually radiates out from the wires in the form of a dangerous radio wave. High frequency transients can extend into radio frequencies above several megahertz and often in the microwave range of the electromagnetic spectrum.

These transients are micro-surges of powerful electromagnetic RF energy that can contain up to 2,500 times the energy of a conventional 60 Hz electrical system. This energy is then coupled to our bodies by the capacitance between our bodies and electrical devices and the electrical wires within the walls of our homes. This dirty electromagnetic energy is capable of penetrating the human body at a frequency of 1.7 Kilohertz -- causing us a great deal of harm.




Read The Health Implications of electrical pollution



Ground Currents and Plumbing Current

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Every time an electron leaves a power plant to create electricity for our homes, schools and offices it must return to create more electricity – fundamental law of physics. Today, the earth’s surface has a higher conductivity then the utility’s overburdened neutral return wire, so now it's estimated that as much as 70 to 80% of returning current travels back along the earth’s surface in what’s known as the “skin-effect.”

Many homes today are now affected by plumbing current . The happens when some of the current that would normally return through the electrical service line is instead channeled into the grounding system, where it returns to the transformer by way of alternate paths, including water pipes, the public water main and neighboring residences.



Two laws of physics support the fact that returning electrical ground current takes the path of least resistance and will take any and all paths - including into your home. This EMF energy can be conducted into a home's electrical system through water and gas pipes, phones lines, and other conductive objects instead of back to the substation through the neutral return wire as originally designed.


These electrical contaminates can then intermingle with a building’s 60 Hertz (Hz) electricity, polluting it it with undesirable high frequeicies and in some cases higher voltages. We are capacitively coupled to this with this run-away electric energy by simply being in a contaminate building or in contact with common household fixtures like sinks, bathtubs and other conductive objects.

Read Duane Dahlberg's paper: Ground Currents



Radio Frequency Radiation
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We are exposed to radio frequency RF radiation energy every day and it comes from a number of sources. The high frequency electrical transients found in many of our home's electrical wiring have been proven to radiate high amounts of radiation-laden energy often in the microwave range of the electromagnetic spectrum into a building or room. We spend much of our time each day living in and working close proximity to a building's wiring and electrical devices and now many of us are unwittingly being exposed to high levels of EMF energy. And because electrical energy couples to a human body proportional to the frequency, high frequencies RF energy surrounds and penetrates a person whenever they enter a contaminated area or building.

Wireless communication devices such as cellular phones, transmission towers, cordless/DECT phones and wireless computer networks all produce high frequency RF radio waves can penetrate a buildings walls and contribute to our ongoing daily exposure to electromagnetic RF energy.

The high frequency radio waves (RF) produced by cellular, broadcast and other communication towers can travel long distances and the closer you are to the transmission source the more RF energy you will likely absorb. Conductive objects, including a home or building’s electrical wiring system, can act like an antenna picking up and reradiated some of this RF energy for several feet. These invisible radio frequencies add to a person's daily, ongoing exposure to RF radiation.

Read Arthur Firstenberg's paper: Radio Wave Packet




60Hz Electromagnetic Fields (EMF)

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Whenever electric current is flowing, electric and magnetic fields exist. There are actually two fields created, an electric field and a magnetic field. The strength of the electric field depends on the voltage being carried, while the strength of the magnetic field depends on the amount of current (amperage) being carried.

All modern electronic devices produce electromagnetic fields (EMF) when they are switched on. Some, such as florescent lights, electric heaters, vacuum cleaners and older CRT style TVs and computer monitors produce a more powerful electromagnetic field. Sometimes high voltage lines or transformers are located nearby and can be a source of high 60Hz EMFs.

In many cases EMFs (at 60 Hz) are caused by internal electrical wires that are overloaded, damaged are not wired properly, have knob and tube wiring or have unusual wiring configurations – especially older buildings or buildings that have been renovated. A building's electrical systems can also be affected by plumbing current carrying harmful EMFs into a home. Extension cords, power bars and transformers, ballasts, high-efficiency lighting, can all be potential sources of EMFs in your home.

Read the California EMF Risk Evaluation

See Dirty Electricity and other electromagnetic fields (EMF) are Dangerous to your Health





"Electromagnetic (EMF) pollution may be the most significant form of pollution human activity has produced in this century, all the more dangerous because it is invisible and insensible."

Andrew Weil, M.D.,
 
The on-site guys shown the typical wiring diagrams for the three most electrical distribution installs, TN-S, TN-C-S and TT.
I do not know what it is the on-site guides, but if it's anything like most of the rough guides to identifying TN-S vs. TN-C-S vs. TT I've seen elsewhere, then it's probably pretty basic and doesn't diagram every single possibility in detail which can be found in practice.

All the rough guides I've seen pretty much show installation earth connected to cable sheath for TN-S, connected to incoming neutral at cut-out for TN-C-S, and to a local rod for TT, in each case showing bonding to pipework and other servicesin the house. They typically don't show the situation you have in which a system which almost certainly started out as TN-S and has been converted to TN-C-S but still using the old sheathed cables.

Well they don't show a TN-C-S with a second earth ground connected to a earth & neutral PME system.
Most of the (U.K.) diagrams don't specifically show a separate local electrode with TN-C-S, but there is nothing to stop one from being provided. It's essentially just one more electrode on the PME (Protective Multiple Earthing) system which may already have numerous other electrodes along the neutral. Half a century ago, long before the TN-C-S designation ever came into use, the IEE Wiring Regs. of the time actually suggested providing a local electrode as an extra safeguard with PME supplies. Here in the U.S. where TN-C-S is the norm (even if not called such here), it's actually required to have some form of local earth electrode on the incoming neutral.

Or a TN-C-S with a TT installed as well...
If the home's earthing system is connected to the supply neutral, then it's TN-C-S by definition. There's no such thing as "TN-C-S with TT ." It's one or the other, and it can be TT only if the installation is earthed solely to a local electrode. The moment you connect it to the supply neutral, it becomes TN-C-S regardless of whether there are any local electrodes also present.
 
Massive improvement over before.... it very noticeable.
Are you placing the sense head of the Tesla Meter in exactly the same positions as before or are you now placing it where it gives the readings best suited to "prove" the result you are seeking to find has been found. The black diamonds are the sense head positions, the arrows are the direction of magnetic field from the Live ( brown ) and Neutral ( blue ).. When they are equal and opposite the sense head will read zero.

.
tesla sensing.jpg
 

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