Very old henley fuse box

[dannyboi2003]

Hi Guys,

I’ve been looking into tenement buildings in Scotland more out of curiosity than anything else and it’s thrown up some useful information. In Scotland there is a "Tenements (Scotland) Act 2004" which covers who is responsible for things such as communal areas etc. apologies to anyone if it seems I'm trying to teach anyone to suck eggs.

Here are a couple of useful links to information online:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2004/11/contents

http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_...y_for_repairs_and_maintenance_in_common_areas

Firstly the main issue here is who is responsible for what, it’s clear that the communal lights and the door entry system are at present unmetered and calling in Scottish Power to assess their side of the installation could open a can of worms for the residents.

However if the flats were originally council properties which have later been bought by the tenants and are now all private it’s possible that the communal areas are still council maintained, this would include the lights & door entry system and would possibly explain why they are unmetered. But this is all based on if's and but's so you would need to speak with the council and check the properties deeds to see exactly where you stand. At the moment who changes the light bulbs when they fail or adjusts the timer (if they have one) or fixes them if they stop working?

What also strikes me is that the lights appear to be a fairly new installation (within the last ten years) and appears to be a professional install, someone would have paid for the lights to be installed so maybe asking around the other tenants/owners may be useful to find out some further information.

All that said you really should get Scottish Power in to check everything over as it’s in a dangerous condition and long overdue an inspection, there is also a question mark over where each flat gets its earth connection from, it won’t cost you anything as its all their responsibility. The other issue is how/why the door entry system has lost its supply as if none of the flats have lost their power then that rules out a blown fuse so there’s clearly another issue that needs investigating.

Worst case scenario is that you’ll end up with a meter on the communal lights & door entry, divided between all the residents the annual cost of this will be very small and a small price to pay to ensure everyone’s safety in the building.

 

[dhutch]

Certainly interesting information, and as you say, its clear that the communal lighting is a fairly new install, and it would be interesting to know who paid for that. If it wasnt anyone in the flats, it looks like it might well be the council, and that they are responsible for the communal areas. But then again, there was talk about a 'Factor' sacked by the tennants?

Certianly, a phonecall to the council ort to sort out if they claim any part in this.


Daniel

 

[OwainDIYer]

Do we know what the other grey box is, to the right of the main cutout, with the unpainted plastic conduit?

I think thats the intercom box.

Which has exposed mains connections in the same enclosure as ELV wiring

Owain

 

[dhutch]

I think thats the intercom box.

Yes of cause! Sorry, whats this thread about now...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Firstly the main issue here is who is responsible for what, it’s clear that the communal lights and the door entry system are at present unmetered and calling in Scottish Power to assess their side of the installation could open a can of worms for the residents.

 

[dhutch]

That said, how much is the electric for 10 8watt florus on pir's going to cost? As said, you could do a lost worse than to know who paid to have them put in.


Daniel

 

[westie101]

There is absolutely no reason why the common lighting and the intercom should not be official unmetered supplies, they are fixed loads and the annual kWh can be easily calculated, face it all street-lighting is unmetered!

 

[Scoby_Beasley]

How does that equate to the oft-cited 3m limit? I would have thought that one could usually have a good few metres of 25mm² tails and still be able to meet that requirement.
Kind Regards, John

Isn't the oft-cited 3m limit to say that, if over, than a fused isolation switch should be inserted into the circuit?

I know the 3m limit is dictated by the DNO. So to this end I emailed my DNO before Xmas to find out what their length limit is. 'Twas just for curiosity as we have an unfused isolation switch in our supply cupboard but if I measure to our CU (as the crow would fly, space permitting under the boards!!) our tails are going to be a minimum of 4.2m long.

Was told they'd be back to me within 10 working days.

Still waiting

 

[JohnW2]

There is absolutely no reason why the common lighting and the intercom should not be official unmetered supplies, they are fixed loads and the annual kWh can be easily calculated, face it all street-lighting is unmetered!

That makes sense, but it still would leave the question of who (if anyone) would be billed for those kWh. In a situation such as we're discussing, would they divide it amongst those who had metered feeds from that supply?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Isn't the oft-cited 3m limit to say that, if over, than a fused isolation switch should be inserted into the circuit?

Exactly - well, the DNO's interest is in the 'fuse' part of it.

I know the 3m limit is dictated by the DNO. So to this end I emailed my DNO before Xmas to find out what their length limit is. 'Twas just for curiosity as we have an unfused isolation switch in our supply cupboard but if I measure to our CU (as the crow would fly, space permitting under the boards!!) our tails are going to be a minimum of 4.2m long. Was told they'd be back to me within 10 working days. Still waiting

As I've been discussing with westie, I think this 3m figure probably arose arbitrarily (not by calculation based on any specific requirements) and probably represents the length of tails beyond which they feel that vulnerability to mechanical damage is likely to increase considerably. I therefore suspect that many a DNO might accept a bit more than 3m if it were in a 'safe' location (e.g. clipped high on a wall), but not if it were in more vulnerable positions or 'hidden'. Westie may be able to comment, although I imagine that practices vary between DNOs and, indeed, according to the discretion of individual DNO employees. In the final analysis, if they want a switch-fuse, that's by no means the end of the world. If the cable route was in any way 'vulnerable', then you might want to consider SWA cable between the switch-fuse and the CU.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Is it mere coincidence that 3m also crops up when upstream overload protection devices are omitted?

 

[JohnW2]

Is it mere coincidence that 3m also crops up when upstream overload protection devices are omitted?

Almost certainly not. Although we know that BS7671 and the regulations/policies/practices of DNOs are not intimate bedfellows, I would strongly suspect that similar thinking (as outlined in my previous message) probably resulted in the essentially arbitrary choice of 3m in both contexts. As far as I can see, the actual length/distance is, per se, pretty irrelevant in both cases - the issue being the vulnerability to damage, which generally will increase with length (particularly when the length takes it outside the confines of a single room/cupboard).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[stillp]

AFAIK it's an arbitrary length within which the probability of a fault is very low.
It's used in that context in a number of standards Why 3 metres? It's near enough 10 feet. Why 10 feet? It's a nice round number.

 

[JohnW2]

AFAIK it's an arbitrary length within which the probability of a fault is very low.

That's exactly what I've been saying, isn't it?

It's used in that context in a number of standards Why 3 metres? It's near enough 10 feet. Why 10 feet? It's a nice round number.

That surely depends upon whether one is writing a Standard in terms of metric or imperial units? - '3 metres' is a pretty round number for a metric one. I wonder if any of these "3m requirements" pre-dated metric versions of the Standards - if they existed in, say, 'imperial' versions of BS7671, I would suspect that the figure may well then have been 10 feet.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

That's exactly what I've been saying, isn't it?

Sorry, I was replying to BAS. Yes, I'm agreeing with you - I don't think your post was there when I started typing. Great minds think alike, as they say.

Yes, the arbitrary 10 feet was used before we went metric...