EV are they worth it?

[robinbanks]

Does anybody know how feasible it is/would/could be for an EV owner to use their car as an emergency supply just for themselves, in just the same way they could use a generator? So car -> inverter -> changeover switch?

Highly feasible. There are people out there with batteries harvested from an EV, who charge them off the grid at cheap rate and run the house at peak rate. There is nothing special about having removed the batteries from the EV that enables that, such that leaving them in the EV and having it as a functional vehicle is impossible (but you might not be able to get e electricity out the same way it went in; most manufacturers don't allow drawing power out through the controller so a replacement or piggy back BMS is likely

Eventually legislation will change this; we're actively performing V2X research at the moment, paid for by the government, and I do foresee a day where in order to sell cars and chargers they're going to have to interoperable to allow V2anything (a passing Tesla owner can use their vehicle to recharge a broken down ambulance etc)

A bit? Doubt you would like one next door.

I don't see the problem with them, they're near silent marvels of engineering, relaxing to watch and make a nice whistling noise when you stand underneath them.
I'd far rather have one as a neighbour than classic forms of power generation, a council estate, a high rise block, a church with a bell tower, an abbatoir/farm/sewage works, an ignoramus; all things im far more likely to have as a neighbour if I buy a house here, than a wind turbine..
We build them offshore at the moment anyway so it's a bit moot but if that changes then what the heck, bring on the wind farms - we want all the trappings of modern life and high energy consumption; we need some visual reminder of the consequences

A new detached garage will have to be built for that car.

But so what?
You pays your money and you takes your choice

He also has the choice to get rid of the cars or to leave the EV outside. Newsflash; cars don't need to go in a garage.

 

[bernardgreen]

He also has the choice to get rid of the cars or to leave the EV outside. Newsflash; cars don't need to go in a garage.

The point is that the insurance company underwriters have decided thar the risks associated with the use and storage of large lithium batteries are high enough that special conditions have to be imposed. They also require vehicles to be kept in a secure garage to deter vehicle theft. ( it is a rural location )

 

[carmanmemoranda]

The point is that the insurance company underwriters have decided thar the risks associated with the use and storage of large lithium batteries are high enough that special conditions have to be imposed. They also require vehicles to be kept in a secure garage to deter vehicle theft. ( it is a rural location )

Have you heard about insuring Land Rovers, electric, hybrid or ICE

And many other examples

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The wind will probably always blow and the sun always shine;

If you investigate the graphs, and look at the windmills, the weather - then wind and amount of sun, are very variable. Not a problem if our consumption could vary to suit, but is cannot. That's why we have to provide expensive backup. The backup cannot instantly come online, so we have it running, and ready to pick up the load. Running and ready, consumes almost as much as it would, when the capacity is used on the network.

So the cost of green generation sources, is the cost of the green sources + the cost of running backups.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Backup as in battery storage? There are alternatives we're exploring. Let's use the surplus energy to pump water up the mountain to the other side of the hydro dam. Let's winch this enormous concrete block into the air and generate from it as it descends when the wind stops etc; we're trying all sorts because we have to smooth out the peaks and troughs of time of demand versus time of generation if we want to use that energy. It causes us huge problems to bend the world to our will, to have the physics of the universe deliver our wants when we want them, but it always has and it gives us an output for our creative energies.

This is the UK, we lack suitable mountains, besides which, pimping water, and winching blocks, produces relatively tiny amounts of generation. The Welsh and Scottish schemes, despite their massive costs, are only able to generate flat out, for a matter of minutes.

Back in the 70's, I was involved with a very interesting pumping scheme, in the Black Mountains. Motor and pump, able to pump water from a low-level reservoir + a motor, pump, and water powered motor, all on one shaft, the pump, pumped fresh, treated water.

During off-peak rates, on a night, they pumped water from the bottom reservoir, up the mountain, to the top reservoir. During the day, at times of peak power demand, the fresh-water pump motor was shut down, and the valve was opened up, to use the pressure of water from the upper reservoir to drive the pump. The top reservoir, was surprisingly quickly drained.

 

[robinbanks]

the insurance company underwriters have decided thar the risks

Absolutely no headless-chickenry involved right?
Come on.. All this "OMG lithium" is so wearying.

Nobody picks up a bottle of Saxo and says "OMG enough sodium to burn the house down and chlorine sufficient to kill the family"

They just sprinkle it on their dinner, all the while making sensationalist conversation about how dangerous those EV batteries are

Have you heard about insuring Land Rovers, electric, hybrid or ICE

And many other examples

Well, that's apparently demonstrably risky, no? Whereas the "EVs burn more often than ICE" is apparently false..

 

[robinbanks]

if our consumption could vary to suit, but is cannot. That's why we have to provide expensive backup.

I feel like you're not quite getting my point or you're bringing past experience from "how things were done in power generation" in inappropriately for the point I'm trying to make..

We want to use energy because it's fun, and there is all this energy kicking around in the environment and we are constantly working out ways to harvest it. A coal power station running your laptop so you can have fun posting on DIYnot is purely a conversion device harvesting stored energy from coal which came to be from millions of years of vegetation being a conversion device storing energy from the sun. Capturing energy while it's available in one form now and storing it in something that we can later process to recover some of it later is an idea as old as the earth, more or less

There are huge inefficiencies in that approach, but traditionally we (primitive man) didn't really appreciate it, and it didn't matter because there weren't enough of us for the waste to pile up noticeably

Now, there are a lot of us all wanting to use energy to have fun, and we need to be a lot more focused on doing more with less rather than just finding more ways to produce more so that we can consume more - that means using less of it, and losing less when we convert it.

One day there probably won't be this notion of "20 million people switch a kettle on during the corrie ad break, get that coal power station revved up an hour before so that all those muppets can just carry on flippantly burning energy like they always have", it'll be more like "electricity during the corrie ad break costs £5000/kWh, if you want to pay £150 for a cuppa go right ahead, or invest in some storage system that means you can make it through the wind lulls and still have your cuppa. Or forego your cuppa"

Energy generation/demand mismatches will always occur, but there is always something that can be done to mitigate, and that may include human compromise

 

[bernardgreen]

Whereas the "EVs burn more often than ICE" is apparently false.

It is true that the risk of an EV self igniting is about the same as the risk of an ICE vehicle self igniting.

The differences are
(1) how to extinquish the fire
diesel and petrol fires can be extinquished by preventing thier access to oxygen
lithium batteries produce their own oxygen so cannot be extinguished by conventional methods.

(2) radius of damage / harm
diesel and petrol fires create an area where high temperature air and/or liquids are the only hazards and these can be managed.
lithium batteries can eject material at high temperature and high velocity ( red hot bullets ) over a large area.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Duplicate

That's the first sensible and accurate post you've made on here. Keep it up.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

It is true that the risk of an EV self igniting is about the same as the risk of an ICE vehicle self igniting.

The differences are
(1) how to extinquish the fire
diesel and petrol fires can be extinquished by preventing thier access to oxygen
lithium batteries produce their own oxygen so cannot be extinguished by conventional methods.

(2) radius of damage / harm
diesel and petrol fires create an area where high temperature air and/or liquids are the only hazards and these can be managed.
lithium batteries can eject material at high temperature and high velocity ( red hot bullets ) over a large area.

I don't doubt that some EV's catch fire.

But there are many many more examples of ICE vehicles igniting. Look at Luton airport car park fire as just 1 example. Became a major problem to extinguish.

 

[bernardgreen]

But there are many many more examples of ICE vehicles igniting.

There are far more ICE vehicles than EVs on British roads

The ratio of EV to ICE and the ratio of EV fires to ICE fires are the important figures to compare

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Capturing energy while it's available in one form now and storing it in something that we can later process to recover some of it later is an idea as old as the earth, more or less

Yes, true, but the problem is the massive amount of storage needed. We have adequately solved short term, small amounts of energy storage - it's the mass storage we are struggling with, enough storage, to last longer than a few minutes.

My home, using gas and electric - gas heated, gas cooking, gas water heating, consumes 5 to 7Kwh of electric per day. So for 24hours use, I would need to store 5 to 7Kwh. Which would involve to pretty hefty, and expensive batteries. My home is just one, of millions.

Translate that storage to a concrete block power storage, and a guess of the top of my head - a 100 ton block, raised to the height of a tower cranes, might generate 7Kw on the way down.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The ratio of EV to ICE and the ratio of EV fires to ICE fires are the important figures to compare

Plus the instant ferocity, of EV fires. Diesel is not that flammable, it needs to be atomised, to get it to burn at all, or heated to its point of ignition.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

There are far more ICE vehicles than EVs on British roads

The ratio of EV to ICE and the ratio of EV fires to ICE fires are the important figures to compare

You have those figures?

Nothing I see insurance wise.

 

[Brigadier]

Yes, true, but the problem is the massive amount of storage needed

Or, look at it the other way around : reduce consumption, and weight of consumption.

Perhaps my EV (when using v2L) can't power an 11kw power shower.

Solution : we go to immersion-heated water storage, which then feeds a shower.


Yes, it can't be done overnight, but very little about the comforts that we currently enjoy was achieved overnight either.


Another point: iirc, RR was mentioned a few years ago, about building modular, small-scale nuclear power generation, as opposed to the current model of multi - billion, multi-decade plants that can each supply 10% of the country.

If we (or a proportion of us) make our own energy use more suitable for V2L-type supply, and a proportion of us also have our own local storage (used EV battery perhaps), the country wouldn't need as much / any base load contingency, or enormous storage solutions.



Or, just ramp up tidal as a supply.