Heat bank & boiler connections

So what happens with the thousands of Combies out there with PHE's?

They supply hot water at 60+ deg when new.

Then they scale up, people neglect them, the water becomes tepid and Granny gets an undiagnosed respiratory infection from the shower. But L8 doesn't apply and they'll be able to afford a proper boiler when they've sold her house, so they will all live happily ever after. Except for Granny, of course.
 
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Where does it say that in the Vaillant literature? Who makes Vaillant PHE's?

Don't you worry about it, mate. Granny smelt of **** and moth-balls anyway and that was the first shower she'd had in years.
 
So it doesn't - nor does any other Combi manufacturer. :rolleyes:

they might offer a performance figure for water raised to 60 ° but I suspect it has pheck all to do with legionella.
 
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You only need a thermal store if you have solar/wood burner/GSHP etc

This is clear twaddle. They are suitable for normal usages with condensing boilers. It is amazing. A number of posters confirmed that thermal stores do not sludge up when properly designed and installed. Yet these jobbing cowboys and the uninformed persists in believing misinformation against all evidence. The dissenters do not even know the advantages of thermal stores. Some are.....

a) They make the boiler run in perfect high efficiency conditions. The boiler demand is decoupled from the variable heating and DHW demands. The boiler only runs for one long efficient burn. Condensing boilers are ideally suited to thermal storage as when using a plate heat exchanger for hot water the water return to the bottom of the cylinder can be 20-25C. This is then pumped into the boiler's return pipe to promote high efficiency.

b) The heating loops using an auto modulating pump can draw off into the loop less than a kilowatt and no boiler cycling that would occur in a directly heated heating loop. And no centralized wall thermostat.

c) The radiator loops needs no temperature dropping valves. It is best the rads are taken off a simple coil in the cylinder to eliminate sludge build up in the cylinder.

d) An UFH heating loop would need a temperature dropping valve, but most of the time it will be trimming off as the temperatures in the bottom part of the cylinder is cool.

e) The hot water plate heat exchanger can ensure high hot water deliveries and be cheaply and easily upgraded to a larger version later if the need is there. Try upgrading a coil in a cylinder.

f) Mains pressure hot water and no complex and expensive pressure safety valves.

g) The radiators are instantly heated in the morning.

h) As SimonH2 says, an immersion can give full heating and hot water backup.

I am sure many can add to them. I even know them above, just by asking the makers and reading up and figuring out how they work.

I have moved away from a thermal store for reasons that boiler technology (well only in one maker, Geminox) has caught up in supplying UFH directly and cheaply. I am having 100% UFH. If I was mixing rads with UFH I may have gone for the thermal store. My DHW needs are not great, but if it was greater I may have gone for the thermal store. My view is Geminox heating UFH only. An Intergas combi doing DHW only. If I had rads (which I may) then the Intergas may do the rads, but it will cycle heating rads and maybe needs a by-pass which I do not want, which casts questions over this way. It depends on costs.

A well designed thermal store is a great way to heat your house and give mains pressure hot water. Why a maker does not package one with ports on the side of a case, that connect easily to the boiler, the rad circuit using an auto modulating pump and UFH ports (maybe an extra for that function) is beyond me. A sludge free thermal store (to pacify the ignorant) that is easily cheaper to run would be a great selling point.
 
You only need a thermal store if you have solar/wood burner/GSHP etc

This is clear twaddle. They are suitable for normal usages with condensing boilers. It is amazing. A number of posters confirmed that thermal stores do not sludge up when properly designed and installed. Yet these jobbing cowboys and the uninformed persists in believing misinformation against all evidence. The dissenters do not even know the advantages of thermal stores. Some are.....

a) They make the boiler run in perfect high efficiency conditions. The boiler demand is decoupled from the variable heating and DHW demands. The boiler only runs for one long efficient burn. Condensing boilers are ideally suited to thermal storage as when using a plate heat exchanger for hot water the water return to the bottom of the cylinder can be 20-25C. This is then pumped into the boiler's return pipe to promote high efficiency.

b) The heating loops using an auto modulating pump can draw off into the loop less than a kilowatt and no boiler cycling that would occur in a directly heated heating loop. And no centralized wall thermostat.

c) The radiator loops needs no temperature dropping valves. It is best the rads are taken off a simple coil in the cylinder to eliminate sludge build up in the cylinder.

d) An UFH heating loop would need a temperature dropping valve, but most of the time it will be trimming off as the temperatures in the bottom part of the cylinder is cool.

e) The hot water plate heat exchanger can ensure high hot water deliveries and be cheaply and easily upgraded to a larger version later if the need is there. Try upgrading a coil in a cylinder.

f) Mains pressure hot water and no complex and expensive pressure safety valves.

g) The radiators are instantly heated in the morning.

h) As SimonH2 says, an immersion can give full heating and hot water backup.

I am sure many can add to them. I even know them above, just by asking the makers and reading up and figuring out how they work.

I have moved away from a thermal store for reasons that boiler technology (well only in one maker, Geminox) has caught up in supplying UFH directly and cheaply. I am having 100% UFH. If I was mixing rads with UFH I may have gone for the thermal store. My DHW needs are not great, but if it was greater I may have gone for the thermal store. My view is Geminox heating UFH only. An Intergas combi doing DHW only. If I had rads (which I may) then the Intergas may do the rads, but it will cycle heating rads and maybe needs a by-pass which I do not want, which casts questions over this way. It depends on costs.

A well designed thermal store is a great way to heat your house and give mains pressure hot water. Why a maker does not package one with ports on the side of a case, that connect easily to the boiler, the rad circuit using an auto modulating pump and UFH ports (maybe an extra for that function) is beyond me. A sludge free thermal store (to pacify the ignorant) that is easily cheaper to run would be a great selling point.

They sludge up in no time, fact!!! That's why they're called SLUDGE BUCKETS.
 
The likes of this man should not be allowed into people's homes. What amazes is that they have no shame about their lack of knowledge of their chosen trade. Even when made fools of by the knowledgeable they still stick to their views of misinformation.
 
Where does it say that in the Vaillant literature? Who makes Vaillant PHE's?

They are all capable of producing DHW at 60 degC or above, depending on the flow rate through the PHX. Draw-offs at low flow-rates will allow the water to be discharged at the maximum setting; any temperature above 50 degC will start to kill bacteria that may have colonized the distribution system; see temperature and time requirements on the Wikipedia article. The discharge temperature is limited by the temperature setting.

If you imagine that instantaneous water heaters are immune to legionella, then you are mistaken or have been misled by manufacturers' nonsense. There is legionella in the mains water; the concentration of sterlising chemicals required to kill it would be toxic to people. Problems will arise when the conditions allow proliferation.
 
If you imagine that instantaneous water heaters are immune to legionella, then you are mistaken or have been misled by manufacturers' nonsense. There is legionella in the mains water; the concentration of sterlising chemicals required to kill it would be toxic to people. Problems will arise when the conditions allow proliferation.

Makes you wonder how we have survived all this time don't it? :rolleyes:

My point is, as a routine, PHE in combis seldom get to 60 degrees on the secondary side for long enough to do anything to bacteria. In fact i doubt any PHE water (in the domestic sector) is kept at bacteria killing temperatures long enough to kill them all anyway.

The whole point is that it is potable water. It is not stored. It is changed frequently enough for Legionellas not to build up.

Oh, and with my store set at the temperatures it is currently set to, the water hits the TMV valve above 70. Goodbye Mr Legionella - if you're there. :rolleyes:
 
Jonas, many boilers can be set to a low flow temp so that UFH can be fed directly - obviously as long as there are no rads to feed as well.

I am aware of that. The Geminox modulates down to 0.9 kilowatt, the lowest of any boiler. This means no boiler cycling. Near exact heat supply to heating demand.
 
The whole point is that it is potable water. It is not stored. It is changed frequently enough for Legionellas not to build up.:

I repeat; BIOFILMS.

Mr. Legionella, his best mate Pseudomonas aeruginosa and their many friends do not occupy a static bacterial community in the middle of the pipe, swimming against the water flow. They live in and under organic slime. that some of those organisms exude, and amongst lime-scale deposits that adhere to the walls of the pipes and storage cylinders. The pipe wall will be the coolest part of any hot water pipe and most resistant to pasteurisation by hot water. The water velocity in the boundary layer adjacent to the pipe wall is zero.

If you had to live on water from bottles that were refilled as required, you would find that, after a few days, there is an organic slime adhering to the inside of the bottles; you can feel the slime and scrape it away on your fingers. The slime persists, however frequently the bottle is refilled and can only be removed by scrubbing out the container. If you drink that water, without boiling or sterlising it, you will eventually find yourself hospitalized with dysentry. The water, though fresh, will be contaminated by the container. It is not fit for ingestion by drinking or inhalation.

Your difficulty in grasping this concept is due to the fact that you have never encountered bio-films. There have been cases in which water systems operating at low temperatures that support bacteria (e.g., heat recovery run-around coil systems), have become completely obstructed by biological slime.

The term 'potable' to describe water taken directly from the mains dates from the pre-1987 water regulations. All domestic water installations are required to be of potable quality.

Oh, and with my store set at the temperatures it is currently set to, the water hits the TMV valve above 70. Goodbye Mr Legionella - if you're there. :rolleyes:

Downstream of the TMV, the water will be at a comfortable 37 degC or so and there will be a bacterial Dale Farm adhering on the pipe walls; all the residents are laughing at you.
 

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