nuke or fossil fuel

joe-90 said:
only a commodity with energy already built in like oil and coal can give us energy for (almost) free

Wood is a commodity with energy already built in and it was enough for all our needs up until a few centuries ago. Along with windmills and water wheels - which were formidable machines in their time - it's how our not so ancient ancestors harvested solar power.

Coal and oil are just solar energy in a more concentrated form. Coal made the industrial revolution possible but oil, although very convenient, was never so essential. If it wasn't easily accessible we would be running our cars on a liquid or gaseous fuel made from coal - and making all our plastics too. Fossil fuels have sustained us well enough but, as you rightly point out, they can't do so forever. Fortunately there are other things with energy built in. ;) ;) ;)

Uranium has energy built in. Weight for weight it has roughly a million times more built-in energy than any chemical fuel. Actually lots of elements have energy built in. Those beyond bismuth have so much that they are inclined to self destruct. :eek: :eek: :eek: Some, like astatine, do so with great gusto but those ones are exceedingly rare. They only exist at all because of three long-lived nuclides that have been here since our solar system first formed. If you want to get energy out of natural radioactive decay you need a lot of material and a very big container to put it in. We do have one and you're probably standing on it right now! :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: We have about half the uranium 238 and most of the thorium 232 that our planet started out with and there will still be lots left when our local star goes out and takes us with it.

We also have a modest amount of the third nuclide, uranium 235 and this can be persuaded to give up its stored energy a lot faster - inconveniently fast if you go about it the wrong way! Furthermore, the fission neutrons can be used to turn the otherwise useless U238 into a nuclear fuel thus: U238 + n = U239 -> Np 239 -> Pu 239. (Actually, free neutrons can be used for all sorts of transmutations - but turning lead into gold isn't one of them. :( :( :( ) Nuclear power stations all over the world are running on uranium or plutonium or both. I don't know how much uranium we have left but a little goes a long way.

The biggest problem with nuclear fission is the waste it produces. If you thought coal smoke was dirty then, to quote Bachman Turner Overdrive, "You ain't seen nothin' yet!" The fission products are many and varied and overloaded with neutrons. Some have inconveniently long half-lives. We are piling them up in long term storage in the hope that we will eventually figure out how to get rid of them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Our best hope for the future is fusion. It's not immediately obvious that the humble hydrogen atom has energy built in but it does. That single proton would be so much happier snuggled up in a foursome as helium. :p :p :p That's how stars work. The difficult bit is making it happen here on Earth in a controlled fashion. It has been done though we haven't exactly perfected the process yet.

But do we need it? :confused: :confused: :confused: Some would say no, and they have a point, but I would object. On the one hand the low energy lifestyle is very appealing. I would happily spend most of my time consuming minimal energy - but not all of it. That's because I'm a physicist (amongst other things) and I want to know what's inside a proton and what lies beyond Pluto. Windmills and water wheels will never provide enough power for the CERN synchrotron, still less the Starship Enterprise!

As a species we are nothing if not inquisitive. That's why we're still here while other hominids are extinct. Environmentalists might not like it but we will eventually find ourselves a new source of energy and we will consume it on scale that makes today's gigawatt power stations look like so many old-fashioned water wheels! :) :) :)
 
Sponsored Links
We won't find a new source of energy in the 10 to 15 years that we've got until the cheap oil runs out forever. What you have to bear in mind is not the word 'oil' but the word 'cheap'. Our entire civilisation is built on the premise that we have oil so cheap that it costs less than bottled water. When the price of oil rises the price of everything rises, apart from your wages which will have to stretch further and further. We have a population that is too large and that needs to be housed and fed. The UK needs two and a half times its geographical size to grow the produce that we consume, which is why almost everything is imported. When the price of transport goes off the scale we will have to pay extreme price for everything that we eat. Couple that with the price of fertiliser and pesticides and you can see the way the world is going.
Even the very best real scenario is bad new for the planet, and that is the 'soft landing' where present day technology can shift from oil to other fuels.
The notion that man will dream up some new power source is just dreaming. It isn't going to happen.
As far as I can see, the only way forward is to use nuclear power to create steam and power and to use it to extract oil from the shale oil deposits and the oil sands of Alberta. However, the oil won't be cheap and the environmental problems are huge. We can simply go back to a Victorian way of life - but we'll need to lose at least 75% of our population to make it feasible.
 
Sponsored Links
is it not a fact, that 80% of the worlds people do not run there lives on oil :confused: they grow, catch it or heard it and have done from the dawn of time ,we can do the same :LOL: i wont be happy leaving my 4x4 ,motorbike,caravan behind ,still maybe a hores can pull it :LOL: but the point is, we will go on and learn to adapt to old & new ways just a differant way, :) we migth even get sunday off as the supermarkets should be gone ;) we only need oil in vast quantity because its there it wont be a throw away world when its gone ;)
 
joe-90 said:
only a commodity with energy already built in like oil and coal can give us energy for (almost) free
not necessarily true, some physicists would disagree quoting "dark matter".
 
joe-90 said:
The notion that man will dream up some new power source is just dreaming. It isn't going to happen.

That's what Einstein said about nuclear power. To be more precise, he said it would be "like shooting birds at night in a place where there weren't many birds". He was wrong.

It's true that the early atom smashing machines consumed more power than they gave back (rather like our fusion experiments). Like everybody else at the time, he knew nothing of neutron induced fission. If Einstein could be wrong, we could all be wrong! :) :) :)
 
is it not a fact, that 80% of the worlds people do not run there lives on oil :confused: they grow, catch it or heard it and have done from the dawn of time ,we can do the same :LOL: i wont be happy leaving my 4x4 ,motorbike,caravan behind ,still maybe a hores can pull it :LOL: but the point is, we will go on and learn to adapt to old & new ways just a differant way, :) we migth even get sunday off as the supermarkets should be gone ;) we only need oil in vast quantity because its there it wont be a throw away world when its gone ;)

last time we did that we had a population of about a million. We've got more immigrants than that! Where do you think you can catch all these fish and grow all these crops?
 
joe-90 said:
The notion that man will dream up some new power source is just dreaming. It isn't going to happen.

That's what Einstein said about nuclear power. To be more precise, he said it would be "like shooting birds at night in a place where there weren't many birds". He was wrong.

It's true that the early atom smashing machines consumed more power than they gave back (rather like our fusion experiments). Like everybody else at the time, he knew nothing of neutron induced fission. If Einstein could be wrong, we could all be wrong! :) :) :)

He wasn't wrong for his time. However, nobody today can even envisage a free energy source like oil. It is a one-off gift that has almost gone.
 
joe 90. i said the WORLD, as beyond these shores,i.e, africa, india,south east asia, etc etc, our four legged friends in these places pull carts not cars :LOL: :cool:
 
In 1900 the world population was 1.6 billion.


Today, just 100 years later it is over 6 billion.


That's what oil did for us. We can't put the genie back in the bottle. We are where we are.




(Up sh*t creek without a paddle)
 
freek me joe i was coming to paddle power next, but dont push out the boat :LOL: when it all goes down we will be blown in the wind or pushing up the daiseys :cry: :cry: :(
 
Any chance someone could explain to me how population growth is linked to oil please?
 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top