Putin, arse, elbow

[transam]

The diffence between Vietnam and Ukraine, is that Vietnam is 1000's of miles from America, Ukraine on the other hand is on Russia's border and is considered and existential threat to Russia it self.
Russia cannot just withdraw unilaterally as this would mean NATO forces could move right up to the Ukraine /Russia border.

But the Ukraine are not in nato

And highly unlikely to be granted member ship in the next 20 (?) odd years ???

Russia now has potentially two more borders with nato
Finland and Sweden ?

Would have to agree that the Ukraine will lose territory in the east
The Russians will not give it up

 

[ajohn]

And highly unlikely to be granted member ship in the next 20 (?) odd years

There does seem to be private comments as poly types make at times to pundits that Uktaine had little chance of joining NATO for some time - years mentioned. This before any attempts at annexations.

Would have to agree that the Ukraine will lose territory in the east
The Russians will not give it up

Who know currently. No one really and if they do will it be for ever? That depends on other factors.

Personally I get fed up of hearing about Russian army this and that based on early actions as it shows complete lack of understanding about what was possible given the situation. Rat Putin has never said he would invade Ukraine, Elements in the west mentioned invasion, capture the lot etc. Putin mentioned a series of things the main one being liberate all of Donbas and he called it a military operation, That doesn't mean he can't mobilise if he wants. Much of his ramblings are for his population. All poly's get up to that even our own.

Most of it is about Crimea really. An extremely important strategic asset. Being that has figured in the past. The Russian liking parts of ex soviet states being a problem isn't that unusual. It's usually in areas closer to Russia, the east in this case. Ukraine even seems to have had problems persuading all to speak Ukrainian.

Can't see how they can like being liberated though and how long that will last if they achieve it is another question.

 

[transam]

How can Ukraine join nato whilst they have Russian military on there territory ??? And have had since 2014

Ukraine and nato is not going to happen in the next 20 years ( minimum) if at all

Crimea is lost and was in 2014

Parts of the donbass are gone

As fractures appear in the alliance against Russia ( over time ) already starting

The Ukraine will come under increasing pressure to concede ? Negotiate ? Give up territory to the Russians

Count on the french Germans Italians to start getting squeaky back side syndrome

Usual suspects and no real surprise

Macron sees an opuurtunity to play the big I am in Europe

The German bloke who ever he is ? Will do as he is told by the french

 

[ajohn]

Count on the french Germans Italians to start getting squeaky back side syndrome

LOL Nice to see you still have the same usual opinion when there is no sign of any breaking. Other parts of the world far more likely.

 

[Vinty]

You mean the Country who handed over all the nuclear weapons it had, is now seen as a threat to russia? and why would NATO forces go to the Ukraine/russia border (total ******)

Ukraine never had operational control over Soviet nuclear weapons based on its territory anymore than Scotland would have control of British nuclear weapons on its territory.
Ukraine itself isn't a threat to Russia, it is NATO encroachment that is the problem from the Russian point of view.
If Ukraine succeeds in expelling the Russians they will have a justified reason to demand the right to join NATO in order to prevent future invasion from Russia.
Quote..

On April 15, 2021, Andriy Yaroslavovych Melnyk, Ukrainian ambassador to Germany, told Deutschlandfunk radio that if Ukraine was not allowed to become a NATO member, his country might have to reconsider its status as a non-nuclear weapon state to guarantee its defense.[25][26]

The implied threat is that if NATO membership is denied, then Ukraine will become a nuclear state.

 

[Vinty]

Count on the french Germans Italians to start getting squeaky back side syndrome

The Italians are more of a liability than a help in any war, Hitler had to postpone his invasion of Russia in order to rescue Mussolini and his toytown army from annihilation by the Greeks.

 

[Charlie George]

Ukraine never had operational control over Soviet nuclear weapons based on its territory anymore than Scotland would have control of British nuclear weapons on its territory.
Ukraine itself isn't a threat to Russia, it is NATO encroachment that is the problem from the Russian point of view.
If Ukraine succeeds in expelling the Russians they will have a justified reason to demand the right to join NATO in order to prevent future invasion from Russia.
Quote..

On April 15, 2021, Andriy Yaroslavovych Melnyk, Ukrainian ambassador to Germany, told Deutschlandfunk radio that if Ukraine was not allowed to become a NATO member, his country might have to reconsider its status as a non-nuclear weapon state to guarantee its defense.[25][26]

The implied threat is that if NATO membership is denied, then Ukraine will become a nuclear state.

So russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 for a threat made in 2021 by someone not even in goverment?

 

[Notch7]

Ukraine itself isn't a threat to Russia, it is NATO encroachment that is the problem from the Russian point of view

WRONG

NATO has only been in the region because of Russian aggression in the area. Perhaps you need reminding of Georgia, Crimea, Donbas + other aggression like Chechnya and Syria.

Putin like all bullies is playing the victim and you are repeating that message

 

[Notch7]

If Ukraine succeeds in expelling the Russians they will have a justified reason to demand the right to join NATO in order to prevent future invasion from Russia

and what’s wrong with that

Ukraine is a sovereign democratic country.

Russia has no right to invade it

 

[ajohn]

Chechnya and Syria.

Those 2 are entirely different. Both involve terrorists for one, not liked by either side. I'm utterly amazed that people don't remember the news content on Syria. The hiddem aspects of what was going on took a while to come out and explain why Assad is still in power. Him - so well backed by who ever that he had to make dustbin bombs.

One channel dug out the president of Georgia for her view on Ukraine. She has the rather tricky one - Zelenskyy needs to think about what he is doing to his country.

Zellenskyy comments. No weapons, no fight, I'll write a list of what I want. More recently. I don't know how long this war will go on. It's not just us who are fighting it.

Sanctions and the war. The people who look at this sort of thing are perfectly capable of predicting the current problems they are causing. That is likely to include the Russians. Despite that things do not look good for them.

 

[Vinty]

WRONG

NATO has only been in the region because of Russian aggression in the area. Perhaps you need reminding of Georgia, Crimea, Donbas + other aggression like Chechnya and Syria.

Putin like all bullies is playing the victim and you are repeating that message

Putin is no different from any other leader of a major power who has geopolitical opponents threatening their borders.
Do you really believe that the Americans would tolerate a similar situation on their own borders.
You seem to forget that the Americans threatened to start a nuclear war over a tiny Island called Cuba.
Russia gave Ukraine its independence with the proviso that they stay unaligned and neutral, the 2014 war only kicked off after the US/EU overthrew the legimate government of Ukraine because it wouldn't sign an association agreement with the EU.

 

[ajohn]

Russia gave Ukraine its independence with the proviso that they stay unaligned and neutral, the 2014 war only kicked off after the US/EU overthrew the legimate government of Ukraine because it wouldn't sign an association agreement with the EU.

Maybe but the crux of the problem is Crimea. The USA would definitely kick off if faced with the same. Maybe liken it to Malta when the UK needed it as a naval base. Gibraltar is another. USA and UK nuke submarines visit there and the UK still has a presence.

It sounds like Turkey may be able to sort something out with grain and fertiliser exports. Russia / Ukraine - sounds a bit pots and kettles to me. Hopefully sorted out with aid from the UN but listening to the spouting yesterday their mass meeting just jawed about problems that we all know about. The head of the UN that sorted out Mariupol evacuations has been trying to sort out Russian fertiliser exports for some time. The problem with Odessa and grain exports is mines. Talks broadcast on AlJ completely. Labrov - Russia would clear mines if allowed or Ukraine needs to get ships through them. His words but the second option not mentioned in the news summary. What's it all mean - we haven't an f'ing clue really as far as all involved sides are concerned. One thing for sure - Turkey is having problems. These appear to go back to Saudi actions when Turkey made noises about the bloke who was chopped up in an embassy on their territory. They also seem to have a problem with the USA part their use of Kurd body bags but arms seem to figure as well.

 

[motorbiking]

I don't understand why there are no UN observers and peace keepers on the ground? Clearly many crimes are being committed.

 

[bernardgreen]

I don't understand why there are no UN observers and peace keepers on the ground?

Russia is using it's veto to prevent the UN putting peacemakers in place.

Some insight here.

Where Are The Blue Helmets? Why The UN Can't Keep The Peace In Ukraine

Since Russia invaded Ukraine, Moscow has blocked moves at the UN Security Council to condemn its action, while using the global body to spread Kremlin disinformation. Experts say the UN is facing its greatest challenge ever and predict a return to the darkest days of the Cold War.

www.rferl.org

 

[Justin Passing]

I don't understand why there are no UN observers and peace keepers on the ground? Clearly many crimes are being committed.

The Russians would shell them and blame the Ukranians.

Russia gave Ukraine its independence with the proviso that they stay unaligned and neutral, the 2014 war only kicked off after the US/EU overthrew the legimate government of Ukraine because it wouldn't sign an association agreement with the EU.

"the US/EU overthrew" That's Russian propaganda.
There are several sources with opinions on what happened . Wikipedia gives the Western view, but the outcome was that he people wouldn't allow the pro-Russian takeover of the government.

Putin doesn't like it but after USSR failed, Ukraine became independent with all the rest.
It wasn't with any condition about the flavour of future government.

IN the south east, a minority, about 30%, of folk were still pro Russian and were hounded by Kyiv. Russia rigged a referendum, and supported them with arms. Under Minsk 2, both sides were supposed to sort it out but neither behaved themselves.
None of which gives Russia any excuse to go invading and flattening cities, bombing Kyiv etc.