The British Empire Good or Bad........

[Notch7]

The British Empire started around the 1500s
We are talking of a period when countries invaded others.....that's what they did.

Strong countries invaded others, weak countries got conquered.

I see no point in trying to make moral judgements, it's about historical context.

 

[ajohn]

What about Dresden?
What happened to achieve an unconditional surrender to end WW1?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

blimey a teacher
perhaps a history teacher
specialist subject Vichy France and the rise and fall of the 3rd reich

I can tell you about Vichy France, for sure, an authoritarian, right-wing, unpopular government not supported by the French population, and violently opposed by the resistance. Pretty typical of similar authoritarian, right-wing, unpopular governments.
The were responsible for the deaths of some French people. It's what authoritarian, right-wing governments do.

Now the Austrians:

the Krystallnacht marked the turning point where Nazi anti-Semitism transformed from rampant prejudice into the beginning of the Holocaust in Europe. Within the first 6 months of German occupation, about 45,000 Jews attempted to emigrate from Austria, but not all of the neighboring nations welcomed them; after the neighboring nations had complained to Germany of the unwelcomed influx of refugees, Germany recalled all Jewish passports on 5 Oct 1938. Without legal means to leave the Greater Germany, many Jews fell victim to the forced deportations of ghettos and concentration camps that came shortly.
https://ww2db.com/country/Austria​

Rampant prejudice which you continue to demonstrate.
By the end of WW2, about 100,000 Austrian Jews had been beaten in the streets, forced to flee for their lives, interned or killed in concentration camps, probably one of those camps that your immediate forbears worked in, of which you're proud and find it amusing.
The Austrians were strongly in favour of forming a merger with Nazi Germany:

German troops marched into Austria unopposed, occupying the nation. On 10 Apr, a referendum was held, and an overwhelming 99.73% of the population voted for a merger with Germany
https://ww2db.com/country/Austria
​

So by all means, compare a right-wing, unpopular, collaborative, temporary, minority French government during WW2, with the overwhelmingly popular, bigoted Austrian government who formed a merger with Nazi Germany, and their citizens ransacked, beat, and killed and stole from their fellow citizens for being a different ethnicity.
Not surprisingly, your own xenophobic sentiments are not too far removed from those of your immediate forbears.

​

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

The British Empire started around the 1500s
We are talking of a period when countries invaded others.....that's what they did.

Strong countries invaded others, weak countries got conquered.

I see no point in trying to make moral judgements, it's about historical context.

I quite agree with your thinking, except some will insist on trying to present history as some glorified, divine, mutually beneficial, benevolent actions of an empire. Empires are simply not created like that. They are created by the domination, and asset-stripping of weaker countries by stronger ones. And in the process atrocities are invariably committed. You can't separate the one aspect from the other.
It's only when some want to glorify the deeds of a country, and deny, ignore, excuse or disregard the atrocities, some of which happened in the very recent history, that needs addressing.
By the same token, when some try to suggest, and their perceived history adds to that illusion, that others (in the past, or currently) are guilty of such atrocities or misdemeanours, while their country is not only innocent, but claims to be a saviour of the world, history needs to be presented in reality, instead of the glossed-over version that they perceive.

I repeat, if we deny or ignore history, or pretend it didn't happen, we're doomed to make the same mistakes.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

A habit I've picked up from you, I'm afraid.

Rather worrying from a person who fancies himself a teacher

Metaphorically speaking, it's a danger of mixing with dogs, you sometimes get fleas.
You can take precautions, but the danger is always there.

 

[sxturbo]

but claims to be a saviour of the world,

I repeat, if we deny or ignore history, or pretend it didn't happen, we're doomed to make the same mistakes.

We were the saviour of the world, along with Russia & USA.

no one has ignored history, no one has pretended it didn't happen, and clearly looking at where we are now compared to all that time ago i would say we have learnt from the past and have not made the same mistakes, different mistakes granted but not the same ones..

The problem with being modern woke, is that they would rather cancel history and pretend it never existed, that's why they want street names changed, statues taken down etc.

an example, the Colston statue, yes slavery was bad, but it was a sign of the times and not illegal, with his ill gotten gains he did spend a considerable amount of money on improving the life of the citizens in his city. It's this expense of wealth to help others which made him celebrated. By all means add another plaque or something to expand on the story further, give it greater context, but don't just delete it from history, otherwise future generations will never know.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

We were the saviour of the world, along with Russia & USA.

You're conveniently forgetting or intentionally ignoring the contribution of the Commonwealth, and the sacrifices of others.
Just because other countries were not part of the 'victorious' celebrations does not mean that they did not contribute to the defeat of Nazism and Fascism.
They were in total disarray suffering immense deprivation, destruction and populations dissevered.

no one has ignored history, no one has pretended it didn't happen,

But some want only to remember the benefits that such atrocities brought.

The problem with being modern woke, is that they would rather cancel history and pretend it never existed, that's why they want street names changed, statues taken down etc.

Being woke is to be politically and geo-politically aware, not to ignore the issues of history that they find distasteful.

an example, the Colston statue, yes slavery was bad, but it was a sign of the times and not illegal, with his ill gotten gains he did spend a considerable amount of money on improving the life of the citizens in his city. It's this expense of wealth to help others which made him celebrated. By all means add another plaque or something to expand on the story further, give it greater context, but don't just delete it from history, otherwise future generations will never know.

Your comments are a perfect example of re-writing history to suit your narrative. You are conveniently ignoring the numerous years that so many tried to persuade the owners to address the issue by affixing a plaque that described the reality of history, instead of ignoring the unsavoury bits.

 

[sxturbo]

when i say we, i meant the common wealth.

modern woke is to ignore and delete the parts of history they no longer wait.

i have not re-written to suit my narrative, i understand there was years of lobbying to have the statue removed, and the council settled to install an additional plaque, which again had a period of time where they couldnt decide what to put on the plaque, my point being that they should have continued to lobby for the plaque rather than just remove it.

there has been other instances where statues have been targeted for removal because the woke brigade doesnt like the history. They want road names changed because they have ties to imperial britian, it's a bit silly.

 

[Brigade77]

I feel it is important to stress the fact that history has always been written by the victor, & the victor hasn't always told the truth.

It deeply troubles me that today we have a political movement that seeks to again rewrite history in their image, & they don't even have the decency to do it from a position of victory.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

modern woke is to ignore and delete the parts of history they no longer wait.

woke
verb
adjective
INFORMAL•US
alert to injustice in society, especially racism​

have not re-written to suit my narrative, i understand there was years of lobbying to have the statue removed, and the council settled to install an additional plaque, which again had a period of time where they couldnt decide what to put on the plaque

You said:

By all means add another plaque or something to expand on the story further, give it greater context, but don't just delete it from history, otherwise future generations will never know.

It was the years of trying to get this other plaque affixed, and the frustration of no progress that led to the destroying of the statue, not any desire to erase or delete it from history.
For numerous years attempts were made to address the absence of specific parts of history that led to frustration.
The plaque was to tell the full story, not just the parts that had ben told ever since the statue was erected.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

It deeply troubles me that today we have a political movement that seeks to again rewrite history in their image, & they don't even have the decency to do it from a position of victory.

It is not "re-writing history in their image". It's re-writing history, warts and all, not just the glorified bits, conveniently ignoring the atrocious parts.
Often, when the atrocities are part of that history, the whole history becomes one of shame and disgrace. That is why many prefer to ignore the shocking truths.

 

[durhamplumber]

Metaphorically speaking, it's a danger of mixing with dogs, you sometimes get fleas.
You can take precautions, but the danger is always there.

Weak...Robbo ..bottom of class...Dunce hat for you.Again!

 

[durhamplumber]

just the glorified bits,

The point is, you never glorify any aspect of the UK..Your views are anything but balanced...Jeez...it aint penetrating your head bro.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Weak...Robbo ..bottom of class...Dunce hat for you.Again!

The point is, you never glorify any aspect of the UK..Your views are anything but balanced...Jeez...it aint penetrating your head bro.

I bet your teachers were suffering nervous breakdowns and becoming alcoholics. I wouldn't fancy spending a few hours trying to educate you, not to mention a few years with many hours each day, of trying to teach you anything.

 

[durhamplumber]

I bet your teachers were suffering nervous breakdowns and becoming alcoholics. I wouldn't fancy spending a few hours trying to educate you, not to mention a few years with many hours each day, of trying to teach you anything.

Some were good...some bad...like any job..My history teachers lessons in economic and social history of 18th-20th Century were, thankfully, less biased than yours.