The British Empire Good or Bad........

[ajohn]

It was the years of trying to get this other plaque affixed, and the frustration of no progress that led to the destroying of the statue

Garbage. It was circa 3 people who came along kitted out to remove the statue. Some supporters came with them. More joined in. As usual a rather minority pressure group started it up. Just like the ERG.

 

[durhamplumber]

I quite agree with your thinking, except some will insist on trying to present history as some glorified, divine, mutually beneficial, benevolent actions of an empire. Empires are simply not created like that. They are created by the domination, and asset-stripping of weaker countries by stronger ones. And in the process atrocities are invariably committed. You can't separate the one aspect from the other.
It's only when some want to glorify the deeds of a country, and deny, ignore, excuse or disregard the atrocities, some of which happened in the very recent history, that needs addressing.
By the same token, when some try to suggest, and their perceived history adds to that illusion, that others (in the past, or currently) are guilty of such atrocities or misdemeanours, while their country is not only innocent, but claims to be a saviour of the world, history needs to be presented in reality, instead of the glossed-over version that they perceive.

I repeat, if we deny or ignore history, or pretend it didn't happen, we're doomed to make the same mistakes.

No one is denying, ignoring or book burning...The clue is in the word though...HISTORY ..how far back and how long do you expect countries to apologise.Re visiting the past with todays laws.morals, ideas etc is not an exact science.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Some were good...some bad...like any job..My history teachers lessons in economic and social history of 18th-20th Century were, thankfully, less biased than yours.

They gave you the whole history, not just the nice bits?
But you vociferously complain if anyone dares to mention the atrocities in a thread about the British Empire?
Or were you not aware of those atrocities?
Or did you just object to anyone daring to mention them? Are people only allowed to discuss the benefits of Britain raping and pillaging weaker countries?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

It was circa 3 people who came along kitted out to remove the statue. Some supporters came with them.

Yet for some inexplicable reason you don't think they were motivated by frustration?
What brought you to that conclusion?
Were you there to follow the proceedings?
How did you know the numbers of those initiating the act?

 

[durhamplumber]

They gave you the whole history, not just the nice bits?

Indeed..The agricultural laws...mines Acts...etc.sending young Children to work down the mines..Using them to operate spinning jennies because they had small hands.. Do we wring our hands forever?? Because that was allowed centuries ago?

 

[ajohn]

One curious thing is that the UK were more active on ending slavery than any other country even to the point of gun ships patrolling the African coast.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

No one is denying, ignoring or book burning...The clue is in the word though...HISTORY ..how far back and how long do you expect countries to apologise.Re visiting the past with todays laws.morals, ideas etc is not an exact science.

It's about seeing history with eyes wide open, instead of the glossy version taught in schools, films, comics, media, etc.

Who suggested apologies or applying today's laws? Strawman arguments creeping in due to your desperation.

But there's absolutely no justification for not applying todays' morals to atrocities of the past. Morals don't change that much with history.
Starving 12,000,000 Indians to death, indiscriminate shooting of civilians in Ireland, imprisoning, rape and killing of Boer women and children in concentration camps in Africa, as examples, are immoral in any era.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

One curious thing is that the UK were more active on ending slavery than any other country even to the point of gun ships patrolling the African coast.

One curious point is that UK was one of the most active than other countries in participating in and benefitting from slavery.
Another typical example of glossing over the real history.

https://www.statista.com/chart/22057/countries-most-active-trans-atlantic-slave-trade/#:~:text=The most active European nation,to embark on Portuguese ships.

The profits gained from chattel slavery helped to finance the Industrial Revolution and the Caribbean islands became the hub of the British Empire. The sugar colonies were Britain's most valuable colonies. By the end of the eighteenth century, four million pounds came into Britain from its West Indian plantations, compared with one million from the rest of the world.
In the Transatlantic Slave Trade, triangle ships never sailed empty and some people made enormous profits. This Slave Trade was the richest part of Britain's trade in the 18th century.
The money made on the Transatlantic Slave Trade triangle was vast and poured into Britain
In Britain, those who had made much of their wealth from the trade built fine mansions, established banks such as the Bank of England and funded new industries.

Who profited?

• British slave ship owners - some voyages made 20-50% profit. Large sums of money were made by ship owners who never left England.
• British Slave Traders - who bought and sold enslaved Africans.
• Plantation Owners - who used slave labour to grow their crops. Vast profits could be made by using unpaid workers. Planters often retired to Britain with the profits they made and had grand country houses built for them. Some planters used the money they had made to become MPs. Others invested their profits in new factories and inventions, helping to finance the Industrial Revolution.
• The factory owners in Britain - who had a market for their goods. Textiles from Yorkshire and Lancashire were bought by slave-captains to barter with. One half of the textiles produced in Manchester were exported to Africa and half to the West Indies. In addition, industrial plants were built to refine the imported raw sugar. Glassware was needed to bottle the rum.
• West African leaders involved in the trade - who captured people and sold them as slaves to Europeans.
• The ports - Bristol and Liverpool became major ports through fitting out slave ships and handling the cargoes they brought back. Between 1700 and 1800, Liverpool's population rose from 5000 to 78,000.
• Bankers - banks and finance houses grew rich from the fees and interest they earned from merchants who borrowed money for their long voyages.
• Ordinary people - the Transatlantic Slave Trade provided many jobs for people back in Britain. Many people worked in factories which sold their goods to West Africa. These goods would then be traded for enslaved Africans. Birmingham had over 4000 gun-makers, with 100,000 guns a year going to slave-traders.
• Others worked in factories that had been set up with money made from the Slave Trade. Many trades-people bought a share in a slave ship. Slave labour also made goods, such as sugar, more affordable for people living in Britain.

http://abolition.e2bn.org/slavery_45.html​

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Indeed..The agricultural laws...mines Acts...etc.sending young Children to work down the mines..Using them to operate spinning jennies because they had small hands.. Do we wring our hands forever?? Because that was allowed centuries ago?

You're citing Health and Safety regulations to excuse British atrocities around the world, committed in the pursuit of wealth for Britain.

How would H&S have avoided starving 12,000,000 Indians to death, or stopped the rape and killing of Boer women and children, or the indiscriminate killing of civilians in Ireland?

 

[durhamplumber]

You're citing Health and Safety regulations to excuse British atrocities around the world, committed in the pursuit of wealth for Britain.

Obviously my wider point about balance went RITE over your head.

 

[transam]

Well let’s not forget French atrocities around the world in there pursuit of wealth for france

or Belgium

than of course there are the Germans

and of course the French who were in cahoots with the Germans

 

[durhamplumber]

How would H&S have avoided starving 12,000,000 Indians to death, or stopped the rape and killing of Boer women and children, or the indiscriminate killing of civilians in Ireland?

They would not...But the British empire was not all bad...how about you mention that? How many lives would have been saved if the French had not rolled over in WW2? .Thousands!!...Get Macron to apologise for his ancestors being cowards

 

[durhamplumber]

How would H&S have avoided starving 12,000,000 Indians to death

You have gone on about that before and totally distorted it then..

 

[durhamplumber]

One curious point is that UK was one of the most active than other countries in participating in and benefitting from slavery.
Another typical example of glossing over the real history.
View attachment 223180

https://www.statista.com/chart/22057/countries-most-active-trans-atlantic-slave-trade/#:~:text=The most active European nation,to embark on Portuguese ships.

The profits gained from chattel slavery helped to finance the Industrial Revolution and the Caribbean islands became the hub of the British Empire. The sugar colonies were Britain's most valuable colonies. By the end of the eighteenth century, four million pounds came into Britain from its West Indian plantations, compared with one million from the rest of the world.
In the Transatlantic Slave Trade, triangle ships never sailed empty and some people made enormous profits. This Slave Trade was the richest part of Britain's trade in the 18th century.
The money made on the Transatlantic Slave Trade triangle was vast and poured into Britain
In Britain, those who had made much of their wealth from the trade built fine mansions, established banks such as the Bank of England and funded new industries.

Who profited?

• British slave ship owners - some voyages made 20-50% profit. Large sums of money were made by ship owners who never left England.
• British Slave Traders - who bought and sold enslaved Africans.
• Plantation Owners - who used slave labour to grow their crops. Vast profits could be made by using unpaid workers. Planters often retired to Britain with the profits they made and had grand country houses built for them. Some planters used the money they had made to become MPs. Others invested their profits in new factories and inventions, helping to finance the Industrial Revolution.
• The factory owners in Britain - who had a market for their goods. Textiles from Yorkshire and Lancashire were bought by slave-captains to barter with. One half of the textiles produced in Manchester were exported to Africa and half to the West Indies. In addition, industrial plants were built to refine the imported raw sugar. Glassware was needed to bottle the rum.
• West African leaders involved in the trade - who captured people and sold them as slaves to Europeans.
• The ports - Bristol and Liverpool became major ports through fitting out slave ships and handling the cargoes they brought back. Between 1700 and 1800, Liverpool's population rose from 5000 to 78,000.
• Bankers - banks and finance houses grew rich from the fees and interest they earned from merchants who borrowed money for their long voyages.
• Ordinary people - the Transatlantic Slave Trade provided many jobs for people back in Britain. Many people worked in factories which sold their goods to West Africa. These goods would then be traded for enslaved Africans. Birmingham had over 4000 gun-makers, with 100,000 guns a year going to slave-traders.
• Others worked in factories that had been set up with money made from the Slave Trade. Many trades-people bought a share in a slave ship. Slave labour also made goods, such as sugar, more affordable for people living in Britain.

http://abolition.e2bn.org/slavery_45.html​

Yes...History...Quote the good bits for balance? Or google the meaning of balance

 

[durhamplumber]

helping to finance the Industrial Revolution.

Maybe we should go rip up Railways all around the World as they were built by slaves and still used today..Rip out all remnants of UK Industrial revolution around the world, not just the statues.