Ukraine counter offensive

[ajohn]

Supply challenger tanks ??

Since entering service, various upgrades have sought to improve the Challenger 2's protection, mobility and lethality, the most recent of which was the Life Extension Programme (LEP). In March 2021, the British Army announced plans to upgrade 148 Challenger 2s under the LEP with the aim to extend its service life out to at least 2035. These upgraded models will be known as Challenger 3. It is not planned to upgrade all Challenger 2s. Those not upgraded will be retired.[13]

Vickers Defence Systems began to develop a successor to the Challenger 1 as a private venture in 1986. The Ministry of Defence ordered a prototype in December 1988. In June 1991, the MoD placed an order for 140 vehicles, with a further 268 ordered in 1994.

 

[IT Minion]

Since entering service, various upgrades have sought to improve the Challenger 2's protection, mobility and lethality, the most recent of which was the Life Extension Programme (LEP). In March 2021, the British Army announced plans to upgrade 148 Challenger 2s under the LEP with the aim to extend its service life out to at least 2035. These upgraded models will be known as Challenger 3. It is not planned to upgrade all Challenger 2s. Those not upgraded will be retired.[13]

Vickers Defence Systems began to develop a successor to the Challenger 1 as a private venture in 1986. The Ministry of Defence ordered a prototype in December 1988. In June 1991, the MoD placed an order for 140 vehicles, with a further 268 ordered in 1994.

We can all look on Wikipedia. This is not news.

 

[ajohn]

We can all look on Wikipedia. This is not news.

Why didn't you look then? Don't you like what it says? It could mean that there are some spares.

 

[IT Minion]

Why didn't you look then? Don't you like what it says? It could mean that there are some spares.

I have.

In more interesting updates the battle for Soledar is continuing. Wagner have said they've already taken the town and are piling more bodies in to try and make that true.

In the meantime Ukrainian artillery and drones are in heavy use so the dismounted infantry is being hammered brutally.

Wagner is mostly using prison battalions as cannon fodder. Which is fine in their opinion, but apparently the losses have made it back to the prison colonies and recruitment is down.

 

[ajohn]

In more interesting updates the battle for Soledar is continuing.

Depends who you choose to listen to. War in Ukraine reckons that Soledar has effectively been captured. Justin's video suggests the same. One way of looking at war in ukraine's comments is that there will be a pocket of hard to shift Ukrainian troops in the outskirts of the city thanks to a salt mine.

It's too soon to say but as per Mariupol hard to shift troops allow Ukraine to say that Russia hasn't captured it. Time will tell but the last few Ukrainian troops may take months to handle if things do go this way. Much will depend on their supply lines.

 

[Odds]

Ukraine has become a de facto member of the Nato alliance, the Ukrainian defence minister says, as Western countries, once concerned that military assistance could be seen as an escalation by Russia, change their "thinking approach".

"Ukraine as a country, and the armed forces of Ukraine, became [a] member of Nato. De facto, not de jure (by law). Because we have weaponry, and the understanding of how to use it."

@BBC.co.uk

The battle for Soledar will continue as Ukrainian forces try to prevent an encirclement of Bakhmut.
Russia appears intent on protecting the southern flank around Donetsk and applying pressure in the direction of Slovyansk.
This really is becoming an all-out win-or-bust situation for Putin who cannot allow any failure in Russian strategic aims in the new offensive.

In other news; The Daily Mirror reports:
A massive fleet of Russian warships and submarines has been mobilised, sparking fears of a fresh assault on Ukraine, it was revealed tonight.
At least six warships, including two huge land assault vessels laden with troops, make up the armada making ready for battle from the Black Sea.
Among them are the Pyotr Morgunov landing ship, which is the largest amphibious assault ship in the Black Sea and cruise missile- laden submarines.
It could signal a new operation, perhaps another attempt at attacking southern Ukraine, or even an attempt to form a land bridge with Moldova breakaway state Transdnistria.

 

[Doug99]

The news that Leopard, Bradley and Challenger units may be offered to Ukraine presents a major logistical headache for the Ukranians. Do they pull out their experienced crews from the front line for training? This would seriously deplete their current war effort where heavy fighting continues.
The Challenger is a complex beast but a deadly asset in fully trained and experienced hands.

 

[ajohn]

3 Jan 2023 — The Royal Ordnance L30 gun (120mm rifled gun)(used on the Challenger 2) has a barrel life of 400 shots at full charge.

T72 seems to be the same as the T72B
The stated barrel life expectancy of the 2A26M2 model gun was 600 rounds of HE/HEAT equivalent to 600 EFC (Effective Full Charge) or 150 rounds of APFSDS.
Seems it can fire missiles too. 125mm barrel.

They are said to have 9,000 of them in total and have been updating to B level for rather a long time.

 

[IT Minion]

it's a downside of the rifling. The Abrams and Leopard tanks barrels are rated for around 1,500

 

[ajohn]

it's a downside of the rifling. The Abrams and Leopard tanks barrels are rated for around 1,500

I couldn't find much info on the Abrams other than on quara and sites like that, 1500 appears to be training rounds or older full military rounds, circa 1990 mentioned. EFC with modern rounds appears to be under 1,000, 750 mentioned which is still good.

My main reason of mentioning this barrel area is Ukraine needing bits and that proving a problem on artillery whose barrels it appear can last a lot longer with shorter range ammunition.

Engine life - if some one bought a car that had problems that soon they would be a very unhappy bunny,

 

[transam]

Read some where that the challenger tank holds the record ? For a confirmed distance / range kill

Think it was some Iraqi tank ? They took out

Some thing like that any way ??

 

[IT Minion]

Rishi has confirmed we will be sending Challenger II tanks. I haven't seen any numbers yet so we don't know if it's 2, 10, 20 or 200 (in which case we will just buy Leopard IIs like the rest of Europe)

 

[Doug99]

The BBC have suggested an initial batch of 12. Their transportation and support requirements will be a significant logistical headache to keep hidden from Putin's daily missile barrages.

 

[IT Minion]

The BBC have suggested an initial batch of 12. Their transportation and support requirements will be a significant logistical headache to keep hidden from Putin's daily missile barrages.

Maybe, but it won't be much harder than moving the M270s or the self propelled guns that were already sent.

I'll bet some REME teams are getting warning orders to plan for a holiday in Poland.

 

[JohnD]

Rishi has confirmed we will be sending Challenger II tanks. I haven't seen any numbers yet so we don't know if it's 2, 10, 20 or 200 (in which case we will just buy Leopard IIs like the rest of Europe)

The number of tanks UK has is trivial.

The number in working order at any one time far smaller.

Now may be a good time to invest in steelworks and arms manufacturers (not many of either remain).

See also this 2017 article.

Tanks for the memories... Britain ends tank production

Nearly a century after inventing the first armoured warhorse Britain is to stop building its own tanks.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I think there are still a few of the terrible little Ajax trundling around.