Ukraine counter offensive

[IT Minion]

I agree. We aren't adding much in real combat power. But we also make it easier for Germany and the US to do so.

In some ways our tiny supply of kit is better. A single understrength squadron isn't going to turn the tide of the war, so Putin can and will laugh at it. But if the Netherlands sends a couple of squadron's of Leopard 2s, then a few more from Denmark etc. etc. etc.

 

[transam]

The point is that tanks can be considered offensive kit

Not defensive ???

 

[JohnD]

The point is that tanks can be considered offensive kit

Not defensive ???

There is a view that when your country is invaded by a foreign army, any weapon you use is defensive.

 

[transam]

There is a view that when your country is invaded by a foreign army, any weapon you use is defensive.

Hmm may be so

But that is not how Nato have been viewing it ?? So far When supplying weapons ???

 

[JohnD]

They started out by thinking that Appeasement would do the trick.

It didn't work last time, either.

 

[Justin Passing]

Poots will be keen to show early hits on his new juicy targets.
Look out for

"Мы уничтожили все ваши танки, мистер Сунак."
We have destroyed all your tanks, Mr Sunak.

 

[ajohn]

We seem to have plenty of spares but in that sort of area I believe that they might normally sold on not upgraded to other countries,
That comes from a relative who was a hawker siddeley ganger but that applied to aircraft - at times.

Russia clearly shift stuff into storage and update regularly.

 

[JohnD]

"Lawrence Freedman YESTERDAY"

"The writer is author of ‘Command: The Politics of Military Operations from Korea to Ukraine’

"There has been a significant shift in western attitudes to Ukraine’s war with Russia. Thinking has moved a long way since the hopes earlier in the war that it would be enough to keep Ukraine in the fight until an opportunity for a peaceful settlement came along. The consensus now among leading western states is that the only way to persuade Russia that it cannot succeed in its war of conquest is for Ukraine’s armed forces to liberate much more territory."

"This requires a significant boost to the next offensive. That explains France’s promise to send armoured reconnaissance vehicles, and US and German pledges to provide infantry fighting vehicles. The UK is ready to send Challenger 2 main battle tanks, setting a precedent it hopes others will follow, especially with the German-built Leopard 2. After Poland and Finland declared themselves willing, we now wait to see if German chancellor Olaf Scholz can bring himself to join them."

FT.com

 

[Charlie George]

We seem to have plenty of spares but in that sort of area I believe that they might normally sold on not upgraded to other countries,
That comes from a relative who was a hawker siddeley ganger but that applied to aircraft - at times.

Russia clearly shift stuff into storage and update regularly.

So your information comes from a relative who worked for a company that ceased to exist about 50 years ago?

 

[ajohn]

So your information comes from a relative who worked for a company that ceased to exist about 50 years ago?

True but a company that was very active in the military field. Why would this sort of things change. Stuff could be destroyed, mothballed as Vulcan were or sold or any combination of those.

 

[Charlie George]

True but a company that was very active in the military field. Why would this sort of things change. Stuff could be destroyed, mothballed as Vulcan were or sold or any combination of those.

In the seventies we had more than double the personnel we have now, 10 times more tanks etc, we also had more munition/tank/aircraft factories, we now have 1 producing large calibre shells, 1 making aircraft and none producing tanks, and yet we spend more than russia on defence and are around 10% of their size.

 

[IT Minion]

We did sell on Challenger I tanks to Jordan. Resale of used military kit is fairly routine.

 

[ajohn]

"Lawrence Freedman YESTERDAY"

An American observer sees things differently. No chance of a diplomatic solutions as both sides have very fixed ideas. It will continue until something gives, That might be when Putin decides that there is no point in putting any more money into the war or something else gives. He doesn't see it ending soon and that is not an uncommon view.

I still think tanks are a rather different thing to use these days. Most will have seen the problem when Russian tanks attack. A relatively cheap easily carriable weapon can take them out. You think Russia can't do the same?

The other aspect with tanks is crews and staff to maintain them. The UK has reduced that so no need for so many tanks. Neither Russia or Ukraine can make much use of tanks without enough of similar. A recent discussion on a weapon that may get supplied It will take several months to get them there and train people to use them. They will also need technical people to maintain them.

Justin made an interesting point. Juicy targets - just how many have Ukraine lost? None?

 

[ajohn]

We did sell on Challenger I tanks to Jordan. Resale of used military kit is fairly routine.

That is hardly surprising. Spares mean that they can be completely refurbished and certain gear removed if it's too sensitive. They buyers will need spares too. All good business.

 

[Justin Passing]

In other news...
I mentioned some time ago about wife's friend's friend... relatives in the Baltics and a tribe in Russia, Moscow and Leningrad, all in ballet/ creative directing etc.
They're all out now, having had rounds of inquisitors - checking what they've been saying, seizing computers, taking the men in for interrogation. Sounds like they could write a book. One family of 4 came to UK, via Mexico for some reason. They've applied for asylum.