Wealth.

[skitzee2k]

Money is necessary as a universal gauge of value. If i want to trade pigs for cows, how do you maintain a universal value for them? How many cows per pig? Whats a sheep worth in pigs? how many chickens and pigs per Camel. If you assign them a value in an intermediate exchange medium like gold then you have the basis to trade anything for anything fairly.

The invention of gold based money, and interest based profit, is the necessary leap a civilization has to make out of a bronze age barter economy to a gold based trading economy to progress.

The next phase is the transition to paper money and credit.

The Communist Principle of "Each according to his worth, and each according to his need" doesnt work with humans, as we've seen, because humans are greedy and immoral, and people will value themselves differently to others, and guage there need differently to others, and others will simply steal and cheat. We tried that theory in a 70 year long experiment on 700 million people starting in 1918, and we all saw how horribly wrong THAT went at times.

Lincs, I am not talking communism, where everyone works the same and every takes the same ration.

Say for example, you want a X-BOX and you can just walk to the factory and pick one up..free, wouldn't that be good? Wouldn't need to buy one as there are mox x boxs than everyone would need...even if they had 2-3 ea....All you need is resources...and we have them...in abundance.
You wouldn't steal...as there is no point, you don't need money...everything is free.

Think 'Freeware' ...people making things because they like making things.

 

[Donkmeister]

A society where all goods and services are completely free is an interesting idea, but most people wouldn't bother going to work if they didn't have to. So, there's no-one making the goods and providing the services that are free.

We'd end up living off the land again, subsistence farming is harder in many ways than going to an office 5 days a week or running a modern farm. And, you lose all the safety nets such as medicine and the ability to take time off if you break your leg whilst ploughing your strip of land.

Although, isn't Star Trek based around a future where everything is free and people only work because they want to?

 

[skitzee2k]

A society where all goods and services are completely free is an interesting idea, but most people wouldn't bother going to work if they didn't have to. So, there's no-one making the goods and providing the services that are free.

We'd end up living off the land again, subsistence farming is harder in many ways than going to an office 5 days a week or running a modern farm. And, you lose all the safety nets such as medicine and the ability to take time off if you break your leg whilst ploughing your strip of land.

Although, isn't Star Trek based around a future where everything is free and people only work because they want to?

...maybe, haven't seen it.

But imagine this then, firstly all power/energy is free...because it is so abundant due to us harnassing renewable energy...it will never run out so supply and demand do not apply.

We then have all machines, cars, trains run off this energy and we make them so they do not break down (mag lev perhaps).

We then have factories that make food. etc. all raw material is free as it is renewable so therefore food is free.

As i have said, I am not saying we will ever see this in our lifetime...or even our great great grandchildrens time...though by the time we die there will be the technology to do it.

The only thing holding us back wouldn't be tech, but people wanting more than other people even if there is enough of something to NEVER have a shortage.

 

[Lincsbodger]

Money is necessary as a universal gauge of value. If i want to trade pigs for cows, how do you maintain a universal value for them? How many cows per pig? Whats a sheep worth in pigs? how many chickens and pigs per Camel. If you assign them a value in an intermediate exchange medium like gold then you have the basis to trade anything for anything fairly.

The invention of gold based money, and interest based profit, is the necessary leap a civilization has to make out of a bronze age barter economy to a gold based trading economy to progress.

The next phase is the transition to paper money and credit.

The Communist Principle of "Each according to his worth, and each according to his need" doesnt work with humans, as we've seen, because humans are greedy and immoral, and people will value themselves differently to others, and guage there need differently to others, and others will simply steal and cheat. We tried that theory in a 70 year long experiment on 700 million people starting in 1918, and we all saw how horribly wrong THAT went at times.

Lincs, I am not talking communism, where everyone works the same and every takes the same ration.

Say for example, you want a X-BOX and you can just walk to the factory and pick one up..free, wouldn't that be good? Wouldn't need to buy one as there are mox x boxs than everyone would need...even if they had 2-3 ea....All you need is resources...and we have them...in abundance.
You wouldn't steal...as there is no point, you don't need money...everything is free.

Think 'Freeware' ...people making things because they like making things.

I understand exactly what your talking about

It doesnt work.

Who determines what you are entitled to take? If someone does no work, who determines what they can have? Even if I have a job, who determines if ive taken more than im entitled. I think im entitled to A Bugatti Veyron - why cant i have one ? Why cant everyoen have one, there only £15M each, but there only 400 or so, so who says whop gets one? What about Ocean Liners? I want Queen Elizabeth II, whos having the only one ?

Thats what money does, it regulates entitlement based on effort.

And I dont know where you have the concept we have resource sin abundance. Were running out of oil, gas, timber, and many rare earth metals.

 

[joe-90]

Population has got nothing to do with poverty.
The Uk has the highest population in its history yet we are healthier and better fed than ever.

If you have 10 people sharing £100 they have a tenner each.

If you have 20 people sharing £100 they have a fiver each.

You are assuming that resources are limitless.

 

[skitzee2k]

I understand exactly what your talking about

It doesnt work.

Who determines what you are entitled to take? If someone does no work, who determines what they can have? Even if I have a job, who determines if ive taken more than im entitled. I think im entitled to A Bugatti Veyron - why cant i have one ? Why cant everyoen have one, there only £15M each, but there only 400 or so, so who says whop gets one? What about Ocean Liners? I want Queen Elizabeth II, whos having the only one ?

Thats what money does, it regulates entitlement based on effort.

And I dont know where you have the concept we have resource sin abundance. Were running out of oil, gas, timber, and many rare earth metals.

I fear you are still struggling with the concept.
Why have only 400 been made? The factory 'knows' how to make them...so why not plug that bad boy in and keep pumping them out?

Why have jobs when you can get computers to do the jobs for you?

 

[oompah]

I want Queen Elizabeth II, whos having the only one ?

Phil the greek

 

[Lincsbodger]

I understand exactly what your talking about

It doesnt work.

Who determines what you are entitled to take? If someone does no work, who determines what they can have? Even if I have a job, who determines if ive taken more than im entitled. I think im entitled to A Bugatti Veyron - why cant i have one ? Why cant everyoen have one, there only £15M each, but there only 400 or so, so who says whop gets one? What about Ocean Liners? I want Queen Elizabeth II, whos having the only one ?

Thats what money does, it regulates entitlement based on effort.

And I dont know where you have the concept we have resource sin abundance. Were running out of oil, gas, timber, and many rare earth metals.

I fear you are still struggling with the concept.
Why have only 400 been made? The factory 'knows' how to make them...so why not plug that bad boy in and keep pumping them out?

Why have jobs when you can get computers to do the jobs for you?

Because it was a concept car, they cost £15m each to make to make one for each of the 35,000,000 drivers in this country would cost £525,000,000,000,000, hardly a practical and useful way to spend the nations wealth . Same with the QE2, they cost 200M each to make, mass producing QE2's would massively stretch the resources of even an economy the size of the USA. Resources are not limitless. They are limited to the Gross Domestic Product of the nation

Look at the B2 Spirit Stealth Bomber, at £3.5 billion each even the US could only afford to make 28.

 

[joe-90]

When billions are wiped of the stock market - where does the money go?

 

[skitzee2k]

Because it was a concept car, they cost £15m each to make to make one for each of the 35,000,000 drivers in this country would cost £525,000,000,000,000, hardly a practical and useful way to spend the nations wealth . Same with the QE2, they cost 200M each to make, mass producing QE2's would massively stretch the resources of even an economy the size of the USA. Resources are not limitless. They are limited to the Gross Domestic Product of the nation

Look at the B2 Spirit Stealth Bomber, at £3.5 billion each even the US could only afford to make 28.

Linc...you really aren't getting it.

Before WW2 America had 600 fighter planes, they didn't have any money to pay for any more..or any gold...but the country did have factories..it also had resources (iron etc)...so it started churning out 90,000 new planes a year. When you stop letting money hold you back you can do anything you want as long as you have the resources.....which we do.

Money is numbers on a screen somewhere, that is all. Say there was an asteroid heading for earth that required a quick HUGE space mission that would normally cost 10s of trillions...you think the fact that people didn't have that money would stop them doing it? The ONLY thing that holds you back is resources and we have TONS of them. If all resources were jointly owned there would be no need for money. "You have the iron, we have the factory, you have the expertise...let's get it done"

 

[skitzee2k]

When billions are wiped of the stock market - where does the money go?

Back into people's pockets.

 

[ajstoneservices]

"You have the iron, we have the factory, you have the expertise...let's get it done"

Or we could go back to swapping coloured stones.

 

[clf-gas]

Back into people's pockets.

How the fec do you work that out.

Lower taxes, money pumped into the NHS. Fuel, food, gas, electric and general cost of living plummiting. I can almost feel myself getting richer

Sorry Joe, bad edit of quote

 

[Lincsbodger]

Because it was a concept car, they cost £15m each to make to make one for each of the 35,000,000 drivers in this country would cost £525,000,000,000,000, hardly a practical and useful way to spend the nations wealth . Same with the QE2, they cost 200M each to make, mass producing QE2's would massively stretch the resources of even an economy the size of the USA. Resources are not limitless. They are limited to the Gross Domestic Product of the nation

Look at the B2 Spirit Stealth Bomber, at £3.5 billion each even the US could only afford to make 28.

Linc...you really aren't getting it.

Before WW2 America had 600 fighter planes, they didn't have any money to pay for any more..or any gold...but the country did have factories..it also had resources (iron etc)...so it started churning out 90,000 new planes a year. When you stop letting money hold you back you can do anything you want as long as you have the resources.....which we do.

Money is numbers on a screen somewhere, that is all. Say there was an asteroid heading for earth that required a quick HUGE space mission that would normally cost 10s of trillions...you think the fact that people didn't have that money would stop them doing it? The ONLY thing that holds you back is resources and we have TONS of them. If all resources were jointly owned there would be no need for money. "You have the iron, we have the factory, you have the expertise...let's get it done"

No, its only numbers on a screen as long as you want intangible goods, like insurance, for it.As soon as you want material goods, you have to turn those numbers into raw materials to produce the goods. So the maximum amount you have to play with is whats called the M3 money supply - the sum of the GDP + all the stocks and shares and savings and Credit of the country. if i own the iron ore, im not going to give it away free. what are you going to give me for my iron ore - and thats where you come unstuck, because in order to persuade me to give it away, we have to agree its value.

The war goods produced by the countries of the world were paid for by loans. Nothing was free. USA gave loans to the European powers. It lent 3 billion dollars after the war to help revive their shattered economies. The loans, however, came with a rider and had the proviso that the allied nations use these loans to buy items like Military Equipment, food and other needs of the people back from the United States only. This acted as double bonus for the US economy. At the end of the war the United States desired that the loans given be repaid back. This issue attracted world wide publicity. A point to be noted is that the USA also extended credit to former enemies as well. All the debtor nations except Russia (where the Bolsheviks had come to power) recognized their obligations to repay the loans taken.

The UK finished paying for WW1 in 1978.

And I repeat, we do NOT have unlimited resources. Did you know the worlds silver mines are almost exhausted? Or the Aluminium mines in the Carribean are pretty much mined out? Some resource sonly exist in one or two places, such as perlite ore - theres three mines in the world that supply perlite ore, two in china and one in south africa, when there mined out, its gone forever.

If you got rid of money, the world would collapse into a huge squabble about who was entitled to what. How are you going to resolve the question of who has the rare items? Who's going to have the Moan Lisa, because i want it. You cant make 60 million original Mona Lisa's. Thats why it has a monetary value, to indicate its worth and rarity.

 

[mark vincent]

Population has got nothing to do with poverty.
The Uk has the highest population in its history yet we are healthier and better fed than ever.

If you have 10 people sharing £100 they have a tenner each.

If you have 20 people sharing £100 they have a fiver each.

You are assuming that resources are limitless.

you are assuming that as the population grows the amount of resources available remains the same, China and India have rising populations yet their standard of living is now higher than 100 years ago when their population would have been a lot smaller.
Obviously the worlds resources are finite and if the worlds population continues to grow there will come a point where population will outstrip available
resources
but that point is a long way off.