EV are they worth it?

[Avocet]

One thing that occurred to me is what do EV owners do about their EVs when they go on holiday and have to use an airport that's a long drive away. So you arrive at the airport with low battery, what next? You can't park it on a charger and leave it there for a fortnight. If you leave it in normal airport parking for two weeks, that low battery will be virtually flat when you return.

No reason why that should be the case. For a start, (just like an ICE driver), the EV driver has the option of stopping for some more "fuel" before he parks up. However, self-discharge rates for a healthy lithium ion battery are tiny. I've left mine for over a week with "x%" in the battery and it has still had "x%" when I've come back to it. The most likely situation, is that the 12V battery goes flat when laid up for a prolonged period...

...just like it does on an ICE car...

So what happens when you come back to your EV with almost dead batteries at the end of your holiday at 6 o'clock in the morning? Hope you can find a working charger and also hope you have enough juice to get to the charger?

You get the jump leads out or call a breakdown organisation, just like someone with an ICE car whose battery has gone flat. The problem isn't usually the high voltage battery.

So you just about manage to limp to a charger that's actually working and available, not daring to turn on the heater or any other accessories on the way. Then stand there like a lemon in the freezing cold for an hour or two while the thing slowly charges and the Mrs chews your ear off, saying that either you part-ex this ridiculous battery contraption for a sensible ICE as soon as you get home or she'll see you in the divorce court.

The ignorance is truly astonishing! OK, let's play Devil's advocate and pretend that your fictitious situation has come about. You've just about managed to limp to your nearby EV charger (freezing cold - just like you would be in an ICE car before the engine turns enough of your fuel into waste heat to power the heater) and you plug into your...what? 50kW? 100kW? 200kW? EV charger. Why do you sit in the freezing cold for an hour or two? Why not just...

...turn the heater on?

It's going to draw, maybe 3-5kW. That means that of the 50 / 100 / 200 kW going into the car to charge the battery, 10% of it (or in reality far less) is going to be keeping you warm, rather than charging the battery. So what? You're so stuck in your ICE mindset that maybe you think EVs aren't allowed to "run their engines" while refueling... (bless...).

And of course, we've already discussed this "hour or two" cobblers. That's the kind of BS that people with no experience (but strong prejudices) keep spouting. If I'd got off a plane at 06.00, and needed to charge the car, I'd be well and truly ready for my breakfast, so I probably wouldn't sit in the car anyway. I'd plug it in, and walk away, into the Costa / McDonalds / Greggs / Starbucks, etc that the charger was built next to - because that's the thing with EVs, see? Unlike an ICE, you don't have to stand there like a lemon, freezing your bits off, holding the "charging lead" and pulling a trigger for the entire refueling process. You can just leave it to do its thing, and go and do something else. Cool, huh?

The closest I've come to a divorce court with Mrs. Avocet, was, ironically, a frosty morning in November 2022, just after I'd got the EV, when we were both leaving home at about the same time. I strolled over to her car and "gifted" her my ice scraper, telling her I wouldn't be needing it any more... Let's just say, she really wants an EV of her own, when the time comes to get rid of her existing diesel...

 

[Avocet]

As does the religion!

There's an irony in that. It's all underpinned by actual "science". The irony being that the ones who oppose it, are doing so, without any science to underpin their "beliefs" (or "prejudices" as I'd prefer to call them). The myths, folklore, superstitions, etc are largely on the ICE die-hard side of the debate! You've got Reagan there, who (I think genuinely), truly believes an EV takes "an hour or two" to charge, and will stop if you turn the heater on. You've got Nutjob, on permanent fire watch, even though the science actually tells him he'd be better off keeping an eye on his ICE.... You've got folk out there who believe t's impossible to do a long run in an EV, even though I'm actually out there, in real life, doing 20,000 miles a year in one, up and down the country...

So yes, it's certainly worth pondering the "religion" analogy...

 

[bernardgreen]

You get the jump leads out or call a breakdown organisation, just like someone with an ICE car whose battery has gone flat. The problem isn't usually the high voltage battery.

OK that will power up the various electrical systems which work on 12 volt DC power

It will NOT provide any charge into the high voltage motive power battery that provides all the motive power. In a hybrid where an ICE can charge the motive power battery a 12 volt jump lead would ( maybe ) start the ICE to charge the motive power battery

Why Do EVs Still Need 12 V Lead-Acid Batteries? Well, They Don’t!

The continuous advancement of lithium-ion battery technology has given electric cars longer driving range, faster acceleration and more horsepower than ever before. And yet, most EVs on the road today still carry around a 12 V lead-acid battery for standby power. But why?

www.power.com

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Unlike an ICE, you don't have to stand there like a lemon, freezing your bits off, holding the "charging lead" and pulling a trigger for the entire refueling process. You can just leave it to do its thing, and go and do something else. Cool, huh?

I don't stand there freezing my bits off, holding the diesel nozzle, it only takes a minute, and off I go. Essentially, no need to turn it into a social event, with a meal, whilst my tank fills at all. Whoosh, done, and on my merry way, with only half as many needs to stop.

 

[DiyNutJob]

Not much, when immersed in water, sets fire to its surroundings

True. The exception being lithium.

 

[flameport]

True. The exception being lithium.

The same old tedious waffle.
Once again, lithium ion batteries do not contain lithium metal.

 

[DiyNutJob]

The same old tedious waffle.
Once again, lithium ion batteries do not contain lithium metal.

They do, just enough to ignite and start the fire going.

Google-AI:

The amount of lithium in a lithium-ion battery depends on the battery's size and type, but a typical lithium-ion battery pack for an electric vehicle (EV) contains about 8 kilogramsof lithium:

• Lithium-ion battery composition
  A typical lithium-ion battery is made up of about 7% lithium, 7% cobalt, 4% nickel, 5% manganese, 10% copper, 15% aluminum, 16% graphite, and 36% other materials.

 

[DiyNutJob]

Here is education for EV owners, innit:

 

[DiyNutJob]

Effect of nearby heat on Li-ion battery. This experiment employed 600C. Typical flame produces higher temperatures - to be confirmed by a gas man.

 

[DiyNutJob]

Effect of mechanical trauma on lithium ion battery.

 

[flameport]

Effect of nearby heat on Li-ion battery. This experiment employed 600C.

What happens if a bottle of petrol is heated to 600C?

Either way, some people can't be helped.

 

[Avocet]

What happens if a bottle of petrol is heated to 600C?

Either way, some people can't be helped.

He's been told all this before. He hears the word "lithium" and sees that it's a really reactive metal. He then runs around like a headless chicken shouting about scary black magic. He lacks the wit to understand that the really reactive metal is ALREADY reacted with another element, to form a compound of lithium (usually a phosphate).

I'm waiting for him to start panicking and running when he sees a pot of table salt. Sodium is also a very reactive metal that also has a volatile reaction with water. However, a very common compound of sodium (sodium chloride) is actually table salt and it's pretty benign.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

What happens if a bottle of petrol is heated to 600C?

Either way, some people can't be helped.

Like a fuel leak on an ice vehicle.

Or a brake fluid spill onto a manifold in the event of an accident.

Things that HAVE happened, not, might happen.

 

[Avocet]

I don't stand there freezing my bits off, holding the diesel nozzle, it only takes a minute, and off I go. Essentially, no need to turn it into a social event, with a meal, whilst my tank fills at all. Whoosh, done, and on my merry way, with only half as many needs to stop.

I don't envy you in wet and windy weather. I did it for many years! Mostly now, I take about 5-10 seconds to plug in and then I go in my nice warm house and sleep soundly.

 

[Avocet]

OK that will power up the various electrical systems which work on 12 volt DC power

It will NOT provide any charge into the high voltage motive power battery that provides all the motive power. In a hybrid where an ICE can charge the motive power battery a 12 volt jump lead would ( maybe ) start the ICE to charge the motive power battery

Why Do EVs Still Need 12 V Lead-Acid Batteries? Well, They Don’t!

The continuous advancement of lithium-ion battery technology has given electric cars longer driving range, faster acceleration and more horsepower than ever before. And yet, most EVs on the road today still carry around a 12 V lead-acid battery for standby power. But why?

www.power.com

Thanks for explaining how EVs work. I've only been driving one for a couple of years... Now if you go back and read my post carefully, you'll see that I said complete self-discharge of the lithium ion battery was incredibly rare. I doubt the risk of that happening would be much greater than the risk of an ICE car developing a fuel leak while parked, and all the fuel dripping out of its tank while you were away.

What tends to happen to EVs when laid up, is that their 12V (lead acid usually) battery goes flat and then when you come back to the car, there isn't enough juice in it to pull in the contactors in the traction battery, so the car won't "start" in effect. A pair of jump leads would sort that pretty quickly.